Realistic Shifting + clutch - Sequential Gearbox, DSG etc.

Hey. It´s actually my first post. Rfactor 1 has been my fav. sim for years, that´s why I have all my hopes with this generation of sims with rF2. And untill now I really like what I see..
As I´m not a part of the Beta (untill summer I guess, ´cause of traveling I´m without a wheel untill summer, and for me: no wheel = no rF2 Beta, it´s just no fun) untill now I never saw a reason to join the forums. I´ve read a lot, but thats it. But as one topic is bothering me, I just had to write it...


Shifting in a racing sim!

Untill now I don´t know a single sim where it is actually realistic, especially when it comes to the clutch. First of all, what do we have in sims?

H-Shifting with/without clutch, sequential with/without clutch. Thats it. And in sequential shifted race cars in reality?

First of all 2 types: DSG and other sequential Gearboxes. DSG we can simulate perfectly untill now, using the paddles or a sequential gearstick and no clutch. An example for a racecar with DSG would be the Seat Leon Supercopa MK2.

More common are other types of sequential gearboxes. Here it gets a bit more complicated because there are several types. But first of all, for all you need the clutch to start driving in the first gear. Upshifting is easy aswell, normally you can stay on the throttle in modern cars and upshift without clutch.
With Downshifting there are several types. With many gearboxes you need to use the clutch for downshifting. You can also rev up the engine and downshift without the clutch.
The most comfortable way is a gearbox with mecanical or electrical auto-blip. It revs up the engine when downshifing and you can downshift without using the clutch. But in endurance races drivers often use the clutch a bit to lower the wear of the clutch and gearbox.


Besides from normal H-Shifting and a DSG, shifting is not included realistically in any sim. It would be really cool if rF2 would be closer to the real thing in this point. Especially as it has a influence on what the driver has to do in the cockpit. I don´t care if people are running around during a pitstop or anything. It´s nice, of course, but that´s it. But implementing realistic sequential shifting changes what you have to do while driving, changes what you have to coordinate, changes your experience. And for me thats the most important thing of a simulation, geting your own actions as close to reality as possible...

 

Want one!

Well, then you obviously have not tried iracing yet (in the last year or so, they don't have it too long). When it comes to shift support, iracing is the only way to go in sim market at the moment. But i'm on your side, at the moment all i do with rf2 is updating from time to time, because as long as there is no realistic shifting (and of course, as in iracing, per car, so on a car that had h-pattern shifter, you have to use it, if you have one), it is totally worthless as a simulation, because its not a simulation at all. Using 3 pedals with 2 feet is what makes racing hard. Everyone can ride a gocart.

I'm tired of paying all that money to iracing, please, isi, give us realistic shifting!

 

Didn´t you know grindingtranny plugin to rf1?
I don´t know if i understand want you want because of my english, but i think thats what you are looking for

 

yes, but where is it. Its only for rf1 till now.
(and it isnt really 'reallistic', just a plugin) or I miss something?

 

Most like i missing something because i´m realy sucks sometimes to understanding things here, but about not being realistc, what i understanding the OP is talkin about the software. To make an hardware capable to colect information os the sim and fisically do not engage the gear you wanted, maybe exist but i think that will be very expansive.
This rf1 plugin gives the ability to "see" if you not push sufficient the clutch ( you can configure how sensitive this will be) and gear will not change and you hear a soung like on real car indicating you not change gears as you should msking things a lot difficult. I use this plugin and i think it one of the bests released for simulate this thing.

 

I think that these goes all waste unless we have FFB shifters that prevent from changing incorrectly. It just feels very wrong when you shift into gear, but it doesn't go there because software decides it was incorrect change. So, I would only prefer FFB shifter.

 

Anyway about what is realistic and what is not.
So rf1 plugin can work in rf2? Thats what you are saying? Ill try it.

 

But this Plugin doesn´t change anything about sequentiall shifting. H-Pattern shifting is not that bad how we have it today, I think. But sequ. is not implemented correctly.

Didn´t know that iracing has it in a more realistic way. But all in all I like rFactor more (and I think iracing is quite expensive), so I would be happy about better shifting in rF2

 

I agree 100%, perhaps that improve is the best important for me because certainly any other sim support real cluth + H.

 

Grinding Tranny doesn't make manual 100% real, but it's still far better than any other sim (except iRacing as has been mentioned).

The best thing about it isn't that you have to press clutch; thats nothing hard in itself. Whats important that you have to rev match very closely (I have set it to 15% tolerance, default 20%).

Funnily Test Drive Unlimited requires you to press clutch hard, despite being more arcadish.

 

Nice suggestion, cupra_abf.

Like i said in another Thread: i want to drive the cars as realistic as possible (and also do it).
And i think a better (and more realistic) Gearbox- and Clutch-Modell is a must have for rF2..

 

My biggest beef with driving control realism in rFactor 1 & 2 is the Auto-clutch AND its associated Auto-lift (on upshift) and Auto-blip (on downshift), which in my opinion are tantamount to a reasonably effective vehicle stability control/traction control. Both auto-lift and autoblip can make for virtually perfect pedal control for people without the skills.

Unlike some people who espouse gear-grinding sounds and mis-shift add-ons to discourage clutchless driving, I think it's OK to shift without the clutch and left foot brake. In fact that's the norm for real racers; sometimes a clutch is just for getting going. Mind you heel-toe downshifting is a satisfying skill to learn and will likley extend the life of a real transmission, but the point of racing is to make it to the checkered flag first, not to maintain your car's resale value. Left-foot braking and shifting without the clutch in real-world driving is actually an equally, or even more difficult skill to master. In any case, mastery is what you need when shifting and braking or shifting and turning, the need for which is negated to a great extent by auto-blip and auto-lift aids in both rFactors. My preference would be to see them eliminated altogether from the player file and replaced by controller selections for (1) manual H-gate shifter, (2) F1-style paddle /sequential shifter and, (3) automatic transmission with manual-sequential control. At best the auto-throttle/shift aids should be relegated to the vehicle definition files*. I can see where auto-clutch for two-pedallers is a necessary option to get the player’s car moving. However, if the auto-lift and auto-blip aids must remain player selectable, they should at the very least be admin controlled apart from auto-clutch for online racing.

*AFAIK, Nissan's 370Z is the only production car with an available autoblip (called SynchroRev Match with the Sport pkg. & NISMO model). I am unsure of how common it is in racing cars but I’d bet it is limited to the higher formulae such as F1, Indy and prototype sportscars if it's allowed at all.

Check out these YouTubes! You want realism? Turn off the aids and master what these guys do...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSyrqEnE4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4Qi7dlYKx0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x5mGY-x1I0
Although the above 3 use heel-toe downshifting, the next fellow here rarely resorts to the clutch at all. Notably however, he doesn't flat-shift without the clutch which you'll note the others above will do at times; he always upshifts with a lift and downshifts with a blip... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCySjrKqluQ&feature=related
Then there's Ricky Rudd here who invariable upshifts with lift and clutch, but will both downshift without the clutch and with classic heel-toe... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DhtCbSayj0
In complete contrast is Bill Auberlen...completely conventional; invariably rev-matched heel toe down downshifts and lift with clutch upshifts... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=TUodMtqk7mo
And finally Petter Solberg. His WRC car has a tiny vestigial clutch, just there to get ‘er going and then forgetaboutit...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGk1p3-3kgY

 

I have quite some insight in real life racing and, in fact, it´s quite common to have Auto-Blip and Auto-Lift in racecars. Depends a bit of the rules of a racingseries, but it´s not a big deal to have it. For Porsche e.g. it´s not standard, but for a few bucks you get a mecanical auto-blip for their racecars, auto-lift they have as a standard, electrical. Drenth has a electrical auto-blip and auto-lift in their modern seq. gearboxes. But still for all those solutions you need the clutch to "get going" when you are standing.

Those were only two examples to show that auto-lift and blip are not that unrealistic. Especially auto lift you could call standard today.

Another thing is a DSG, here you don´t have a clutch at all, like in the Seat Leon Supercopa or the VW Scirocco GT24.

And all my examples were far under "F1, Indy ans prototype sportcars". Auto-Blip and auto-Lift are even more common than a traction control...

 

sorry, didnt get that one, what auto-lift may be?

 

Now I think another nice feature could be if in vehicle physics file there would be option to set "bite point" for clutch, this is pretty important too. Very very few simracers use external tool (DXTweak) to set where the clutch starts dis/engage, by default you have linear response on the whole travel which isn't on any real car afaik. I set it so only last 40% of travel actually does something like on my Skoda lol. But then again this can vary even car to car - the same make and model can have different clutch so it may not be that useful to implement.

So this bite point isn't all that important but we definitely need more realistic shifting behaviours overall. Currently in beta its just as bad as in rf1 , pure arcade shifting. Well, bad wording again, not pure arcading, we do have some options, but we need more clutch-specific options huh.

 

Normally you have to lift your foot of the throttle to shift. With auto-lift you don´t have to do that.
In real life you normally have an ignition cut off for a fraction of a second with dogboxes or sequ. gearboxes, so you can leave your foot full throttle.

Edit: I´m happy I can see there are more people that would like a more complex shifting system. The system we have is fine, but more options and a more complex one for people who would like to would be great.

 

got it ,keep foot down and gears change, ok.
I thought all modern auto seq. boxes did that.

 

For those that are unfamiliar with these settings, these are the lines in the user's .PLR file; (1= Off, 0=On)...
Auto Clutch="1"
Auto Lift="1" // Whether to automatically lift with manual shifting but auto-clutch (non-semiautomatic trans only)
Auto Blip="1" // Whether to automatically blip with manual shifting but auto-clutch (non-semiautomatic trans only)

Auto Clutch is selectable from the keyboard (default=F11) and can be disallowed by the server admin. As noted, once auto-clutch is off, users have no choice but to managed their throttle manually when shifting, but once allowed and enabled, players gain a significant advantage immediately because both Auto Lift and Auto Blip ON by default. Turning them off or selecting one or the other is done only by editing the .PLR file disable the Auto Lift and/or Auto Blip options. Supporting 2-pedal controllers shouldn't automatically grant players the use of these other driving aids.

One good thing is that if leagues or admins do want to disallow it, they do have a choice to make such a statement of rules up front and review the results .XML file after the race. The use of Auto Lift and Auto Blip is revealed in a line at the end of each players results section. Looks like this: <ControlAndAids|PlayerControl,Clutch,AutoLift,AutoBlip|ControlAndAids>

 

veeery usefull, thnx

 

0 = Off ; 1 = On