permission - author unavailable

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MaXyM, May 7, 2012.

  1. keanos

    keanos Registered

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    Okay Nils if that all is illegal stuff, who would use this Stuff and convert it?

    So if you have something (brands owner) that I would stole (create a mod), than los it (don't care about the mod) and than another person would found it (convert, remod it). Is this than legal at this point? ;) Think about that.
     
  2. SLuisHamilton

    SLuisHamilton Banned

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    I think what Nils try to say and i agree if i´m understanding right is that you cannot complaining about stolen your stuff when "yours" stuff are already stolen.
    Like a drugdealer going to police presting charge about drug addict whos not pay his stuff.
     
  3. keanos

    keanos Registered

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    But not all Mods are stolen, and the discussion is: is anybody allowed to use my material from a mod or the whole mod to convert it, if I don't react on his permission-question.
     
  4. Kristoff Rand

    Kristoff Rand Registered

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    where do you live... I can't wait to come by your house while you're not home and take everything you own because you didn't answer me when I asked if I could have it... you must be from the occupy movement.
     
  5. Kristoff Rand

    Kristoff Rand Registered

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    Tuttle beat me to the analogy...
     
  6. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Basicaly, almost all mods excepting fantasy ones are "stolen" (authors got no licence to release car or track from proprietary rights owners). Of course there are some made with such agreement. A few...
     
  7. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    they surely dont steal it by occupying it...
     
  8. SLuisHamilton

    SLuisHamilton Banned

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    Better said in that way. Thanks.

    I would call it hypocrisy.
     
  9. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead Staff Member

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    Right owners of REAL cars are the manufacturers and they simply DO NOT persecute people making free mods. Maybe you are giving them some free advertising spreading their TM and you've zero profit using their own TM. You're not stealing a real Ferrari if you create a model of it. There is no damage for the author. Of course if you sell your own game title...you have to pay a license to manufacturers and TMs.

    But if you steal a model/texture/car/track created by another author, for the same purpose (maybe by professionals for commercial purposes), is a different thing. You're stealing for your personal project the same "product" that was created and released by its own author for the same output or for commercial purposes. Big difference here uh? He spent hours to make the job, you spent 2 minutes to steal it and maybe you're going to ruin the quality standard needed by the original author...I know...this sounds a little stand offish but we've to respect some basic rules to avoid total anarchy.

    Imho, it's not just about legal/not legal...but ethical/non ethical.

    Ask for a permission, if they don't reply - don't use it. :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2012
  10. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    What is a difference selling game with using model of some manufacturer's property or spreading mod with the models? In both cases you can say you are giving free ad for car manufacturer. BTW please point me to some sentences which allows using someone's other properties like car shape or logo while making free mods.

    You are assuming that reused stuff must ruing quality? What if I increase a quality of his mods significantly?

    I'm not sure. Any one has other ethical sensibility. That's why I post a question. To get know what community thinks about it.
    It is not a secret why I'm asking for. We do modifications of a lot of tracks, applying new shaders. But in most cases we can't share the results. We want to provide such version to original author, including all project files to allow him to release this version under his name. But very often author is not available. So this stuff ends up in our private/league repository. Sometimes you may see screen shots from this stuff. I think, community suffer fro this. But I also know how it is related to a law.
     
  11. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    This is a subject best left along.

    The thing is there is going to be rF1 content that want see the light of day in rF2 because the original author isn't working on this stuff anymore.

    A lot of the earlier content would take a lot of work to get it up to a high enough standard now it would be easier to start from scratch anyway. Then there's the converted stuff from other games, Stuff we'd all like to see scratch built rather then just patched up for rF2. These conversions even in rF1 aren't up to the standard of some of the community scratch built mods and tracks.

    Do we really want to see them in rF2? History has shown that these converts aren't that flash.
     
  12. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    DPainter, I asked due to another reason (described a post ago). Not in relation to rF2. I'm against simply converted content into rF2 from rF1. But at the end question and especially answers apply to both cases.
     
  13. feels3

    feels3 Member

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    Maybe the question should be different?

    Can we take not our tracks / cars , then improve them a lot (shaders, materials, new physics) and release with notes that it's not our track / car but improvements are ours :)

    We have many great tracks in our league with new shaders and lighting, and it's really sad that only we can use them and we can't share them with community.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2012
  14. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    If you release textures - it doesn't change a track, doesn't cause missmatches. textures are yours - it's ok... even if if dig deeper, it is also modification and by law is prohibited (IMO)
    But some changes may cause missmatches. Original tracks has a lot of bugs in Xsectors, in surface or curbs. So in that case new released track is not compatible with original one. It is just new version.
    BTW the same apply to cars.

    Another case is, who will judge if changed track is improved or ruined? ;)
    I don't want to judge this. Just point to a few facts.
     
  15. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead Staff Member

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    It's the same process you use taking a photo of a sport car or when you make a plane with a piece of pongo...you've nothing to worry about legal stuff until your product is a no-profit project. No call phones by Ferrari's lawyers. :)

    I'm assuming nothing. What part of "MAYBE" you do not understand? I suggest you that, if you can do it better as you're saying, do it by yourself from scratch...and you know I'm talking about models/textures stealing.


    If you're talking about your work with shaders on rF1 I've to say they looks STUNNING and I've to agree those shaders could increase quality in some mods...but it's not your call nor mine. We all have to respect rules and if you do not want...why open a thread asking everybody if you can? You can't.

    :)
     
  16. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Because I wanted to know community stand. And maybe some one would have idea how to solve such problems in future. Maybe authors should register into some central database which makes possible reaching them if needed. Don't know - just free idea.

    Fair enough.
     
  17. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    THATS THE point!!
    We should discuss and think deep about a new (?) central to solve such problems in the future!
    I wanted to open a new thread about that anyway....

    It´s pretty obvious, important and necessary that the (modding-)community should work
    together much more than it happens till now.
    This discussion shows that this is very much needed!
     
  18. Marco Bijl

    Marco Bijl Registered

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    That registration is totally useless ;)

    At this time, you have a readme.txt or something with the mod. In that file are the contact details.
    With what you are suggesting, the only thing that would change, is that the contact details are no longer in the readme file, but in some form of database somewhere.

    No tell me, what benefit does it have to have the same contact details, but from a different place? If the modder is not interested in giving permission, or responding, it doesn't matter where you put the contact details. The situation is the same.

    The details are posted, and afterwards never changed. So, if f.i. an email address has changed, you still can't reach the modder.

    The idea is nice, but there is no benefit unless someone keeps track of the modders, and updates the database. And thats an undoable thing imo.
     
  19. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    With such database, there is no need to re-release a track or mod if just contact details have changed.
    Also, if there is a repacked release with no readme, you can always check, who might be the creator.
    But we already have such database - rfactorcentral. Is that not enough?

    Wyslane z Tapatalk 2
     
  20. Vince Klortho

    Vince Klortho Registered

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    The same tired, old argument which is all wrong for two reasons. First, in the USA there is a concept of fair use. That means copyrighted and trademark things can be used 'fairly' and legally. Secondly, originally created reproductions of something real are themselves copyrighted. For example, say you attended a real race and take some photographs. Your photographs can be copyrighted. You don't have a license for the car, or the course, or any of the logos used but that is irrelevant. Another example : let's say you painted a portait of some cars at a race. That portait can be copyrighted. Again, you have no licenses for anything depicted but that does not matter. You can find examples all over the internet where people are selling photographs and portraits of cars at races for real money and they are allowed to do so without license. This is because they are considered works of art. Recent court cases in the USA have ruled that computer games are also considered works of art so they fall under the same terms and conditions. The bottom line is, mods are NOT illegal and courts have affirmed this.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2012

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