New M2 - shockingly disappointing

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by vava74, Sep 30, 2023.

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  1. vava74

    vava74 Registered

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    Finally tried the new M2 and, personally, I believe it feels and drives really bad.

    It feels like I am driving iRacing.

    If this will be the rookie car... it simply does not exhibit any of the things which makes rFactor 2 rise above everything else.

    No feeling of grip/rubber bite, hardly any feel of weight transfer...
    Previous version had major issues, this has even worse issues on the opposite side of the spectrum.

    Sorry for being blunt, but I call a spade a spade, every single time and will defend rFactor 2 as vigorously as Don Quixote fights windmills, but not this time.
     
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  2. Radkappe

    Radkappe Registered

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    I see it the same way. You just sliding around without having any sense of when the car is evolving grip.:eek: disappointing:(
     
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  3. Love Guitars n Cars

    Love Guitars n Cars Registered

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    I like the new FFB. I can now run over curbs without my wheel giving very harsh forces. I think maybe they smoothed the high forces? I don't know.

    How the car drives sure has changed. I think S397 is listening to the complaints that in order to be fast in rF2 you have to slide the car in a unrealistic way and this is their response. I have no idea if that complaint is legitimate or not but it's just my guess as to why such a big change.
     
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  4. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    i drove this car in 2 sims.
    rf2 and ACC
    in rf2 it has a lot of understeer
    in ACC feels better but still understeer
    to be honest not my favorite car and slides a lot in rf2
     
  5. vava74

    vava74 Registered

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    The excessive sliding has been addressed appropriately in all cars that received the tyres with new parameters.
    The M2 feels like it's on slicks on a drenched track or on threaded tyres on a dry track.
    I know that this car has low aero grip, but the mechanical grip is virtually non existent, it feels like the tyres are stone cold*.
    Again, I am absolutely not saying that the previous M2 was right, as it had major issues on its own, but this version went the polar opposite in my opinion. It simply does not feel like rF2.

    * one of the things which I believe rF2 should improve on is, precisely, that the grip on cold tyres should be sketchier than it is, but the grip on these tyres never climbs.
     
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  6. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I was not planning on driving this yet, but this thread intrigued me.

    The first expression wasn't that tire is terrible. But damn there really seemed to be no grip at all. Car felt genuine very real, but it was like tires were constantly on marbles at certain slip angles. If someone would have tricked me into thinking I was driving on damp track or even slightly icy cold tarmac I would have believed.

    However I did not spin once. And I kept getting faster and faster. Started to like it a bit. I was on entirely default setup. Tires never stopped giving feeling of instability, I think I went from too cold to too hot tires very fast. Wear is rapid, the more tires were worn the more grip I thought I had, probably also effect of groove gaining rubber. Although car didn't feel like gripping much, but it did though, I was catchin up AI laptimes at Nurburgring Sprint NC.

    Went to pits to do some changes. Minimized pressures, turned on TC, softened suspension slightly, minimized rear toe, a bit reduced fuel load. Off to track, and I ABSOLUTELAKAUAKY LOVE IT. It just perfectly fits to all what I expect this car should do. Tarmac is probably also properly saturated by now, it is 23C warm and sunny. In a few laps I beat AI and do 1'37'9. After that tires started to feel getting the marbles feeling back as I suppose they were heating over the tire performance window, however car still felt fine and I never spun, but I was working respectably to stay heading the right way. At last I decided to push slight more and tires got even more out of the temps window, and last lap was lost. If I wanted I could have driven a cool down lap, and probably could have pushed for five-seven more laps after that.

    I thought the steering indeed has little feeling of bite during turning, but it grips. It is just a feel thing and a matter of preference, to me no problem. FFB in general is pretty great IMO. The tire wear is super rapid, but oh well, the important thing seems to be to stay in temps window anyway. No silly drifting, but the car is conforming to slight level of sliding, which feels realistic and also entertaining.

    I think this car makes sense to be coming for free and be kind of a demo-intro of how awesome rF2 could be/is already. Well perhaps still not to everyone to like it, but also it depends how much you can discover and not just hang up on first impression.
     
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  7. grudevart

    grudevart Registered

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    I have same impression as mantasisg. First laps was not impressed, but this changed after getting used to new front/rear balance and minor tweaks in setup.
    New FFB is definitely weaker, I just bumped multiplier, add some smoothing and 1-2% of initial forces and this car is a joy.

    I think that we get so used to cars with high downforce, that M2 can feel like on ice, but it has grip for sure, just compare apex speed with real life footage, they don't differ that much.
     
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  8. vava74

    vava74 Registered

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    Feeling wise, it's as if we are not in rFactor 2.
    I am not discussing physics per se, but feel. This iteration of the M2 does not feel like a car in rFactor 2, making us drive only with out eyes (like in iRacing) rather than, as usual, by feel as well.

    All other recent official content requires us to lower the car specific FFB - with the exception of the Caterham - so this is in stark contrast with all those cars. Note, I have a Moza R9 and on all other recent official content I use between 60 and 85% car specific FFB (with the exception of the IR18 and the Formula Pro which I like to keep at 100%).

    Given that this car will be used a the rookie car in the CS 2.0, this huge difference between FFB "style and strength" will only generate more confusion amongst rF2 newbies and, moreover, it will not be engaging due to not being contrasting with other sims.

    Finally, setups make a difference, obviously, but, outside of caster, they shouldn't make a night and day difference in the FFB when you are not pushing the car to the very limit. Also, again, in my opinion, if it's the rookie assigned car, the car should not need significant setup changes to feel better.
     
  9. grudevart

    grudevart Registered

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    And Caterham is second "new" car in rF2 without any downforce, but with much less weight.
    We get used to override tires, with infinite grip/lock combo. When you smooth out steering inputs in M2, you can perfect feel grip, loss of grip and weight balance. But tyres loose that grip very fast and steep, when too much steering lock is applied, which is the case on car with slicks without downforce.
    For me after driving LMP2 or GTE cars, going to 992 Cup is shocking, how little grip it has.
     
  10. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Simulations do get "attached" or "branded" to specific type of paradigms, which eventually becomes their own versions of reality. rF2, however, has always been versatile and a lot of various approaches to car feel are available from older ISI content to many different kinds of approaches by modders, to older S397 creations, to recent S397 creations. I don't think there has ever been a specificaly fabricated "rF2 feel". rF2 is just known for it's "good FFB" because it has powerful physics. And if tire + car geometry and other involving parameters sum up to certain feel it is not shocking to me. I am shocked, though over how subjective thing like FFB is so much overrated in simracing comparing to what really matters - observing what car does, how it works. Maybe I have different mind, but to me drivign a car and seeing how it responds is in a loop of FFB, I am not only conscious of steering torque. I go through the curve, there maybe isn't much increase in steering torque, but I see with my eyes that car is glued on the racing line, and from there I saw steering wheel right and left a bit, because it is realistic that you don't feel exact spot of perfect slip angle IRL too, but it gets nerdy here, so I'll stop.

    At least this car doesn't drop steerign torque while turning, which is also realistic thing in various cars/setups.

    And I still haven't spun with this car.
     
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  11. Love Guitars n Cars

    Love Guitars n Cars Registered

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    Then you're a master!
     
  12. Bernat

    Bernat Registered

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    I personally like there's real differences between cars. If I don't like some car I'll take it as that car isn't for me. There are plenty of other cars that may suit me better. In this case, I just tried the car on Drundrod and since I don't know the track that well I lost control over it in some turns but in general it felt good.
     
  13. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @Bernat This is quite a combination. Any car in Dundrod is extreme, but especially radial slicks wearing stiff car :D

    I am sorry if this somehow was offensive. But I am not sorry, I hear it all the time about cars is it Skip Barber, Miata, Formula Vee, is it Caterham or is it this car. If there is something not totally ideal to some sort of simracing folklore standard, then how a car can be on a spot light, let alone to be used as some sort of drivers upbringing to advanced skills vehicle.

    Take for example wights lifting, you won't get advanced if you won't get anywhere near failure ever and just use light weights to fake feel strength.

    This car really is not difficult, though, I think it is way easier than Formula Vee for example. While also being higher performance, and rather more exciting perhaps.
     
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  14. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Not to come off like an rF2 fanboy or anything, but imo there is practically nothing wrong with this car.

    If you go into a corner too fast, it understeers - just like almost every other car ever made. Solution? Go into the corner slower.
    If you get on the gas too hard and too early, it oversteers. Tick, that's also realistic.

    What is wrong is that YOU think the car should be able to take a corner at a certain speed, when in fact, it cannot, and must be driven a little slower through the corners, according to it's limits.

    When you drive the car at IT'S limits (not your own idea of it's limits), then the feeling of grip is just fine (and actually pretty decent). I went out on a green track with cold tyres and had no issues. You have to be in tune with the car as it is and not overlay your own expectation of what it should be like. There is a fine line between under the limit and over the limit. Listen to the car, do what the car wants, and accept it for what it is. It's a nuanced driving style that requires you really slow things down and feel the car, rather than just throwing it into corners.

    The only issue I have with it (which I also have with other cars) is a "pulsing" sensation to the force feedback. Just like some of you the understeer may not make sense, to me I can't make sense of this pulsing feeling, and so it bothers me.
     
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  15. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Pulsing could be the ABS working, or a flat spotted tire. Make sure your ABS is set to a medium number on the incar setting. 4 or 5.
     
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  16. RaceNut

    RaceNut Registered

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    Yes, at default the ABS may be quite sensitive. That's not so uncommon in other cars either. I also commonly do some fine tuning of both ABS / TC in other titles as well. Default is not necessarily optimal by any means.

    I do tend to think the BMW M2 is pretty well represented as it is in rF2 currently. It does require a bit more finesse in steering / accel / braking for sure but, I like that cars like these exist to bring the extra challenge.
     
  17. Love Guitars n Cars

    Love Guitars n Cars Registered

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    LOL. I'm not sure who's offended here but o.k. :)
     
  18. Bernat

    Bernat Registered

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    Not me, for sure. I think you cut the text too short. ;)

    I like to test the important updates but don't have enough time, so I mix them when possible. For your interest, this car is very manageable even at Dundrod. Without TC it's very sensitive on the throttle but still a good drive. I don't get the criticism but maybe others have found flaws where I'm not able to find them.

    We get to drive a lot of simulated cars, very different cars, and we should get used to that variety in the driving feel and style. I might be a bit too forgiving because of my lack of experience on real sports cars, but so could others be a little too demanding for the same reason. I don't know.

    I mean, where do we draw the line? Is the car that we don't like or is the simulation? It might be hard to say without real life experience.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2023
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  19. 8Ball

    8Ball Registered

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    Well I agree, to be honest in general I am now lost in rF2.
    I think it is more my problem though.
    There was a day when all one needed to do was to join a room and change the multi FFB.
    Basically all the available cars all felt decent and gave great feedback.
    When ISI introduced the first new tyre I felt Historic just go down hill.
    Frans Solberg used to spend hours in my room 7 days a week
    When waiting for people to lap with we would do 5 lap sets of Spa just out of each others tow
    We could lap within a tenth or 2 hours on end.
    When the new tyre was released Frans drove one lap and said wtf !. I had never in 2 years heard him swear.
    He never came back to race F3 again, that was exactly how I felt.
    For mine the old tyre model felt better, yes less complex, stickier but it had just the right amount of drift.

    Go drive F3 Eve, keep identical settings then try the F3 Eve Community mod.
    Like night and day which is more enjoyable to drive even though it may not be more correct.
     
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  20. vava74

    vava74 Registered

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    I am not too sure to which tyres you refer to, but I was told on Discord that the M2 now has semi-slicks which, as far as I know, was not announced.
    This would explain how different they feel, but I still don't think they feel OK.

    So, I would place these specific tyres on a separate category altogether as "I don't understand"

    As for my personal hierarchy:
    - most recent tyres at the top (BTCC, 992, GTE, Oreca, Formula Pro, IR18, etc... although within these I have different levels of appreciation);
    - "Corvette C6R, Formula ISI-era" tyres, not too far off.
    As for the S397 2017/18, the hard compound on the GT3 and GTEs felt OK and more on natural side, but med and soft felt like melting cheese and had no "snap", they felt like you could stretch them forever.
     

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