Karts - Steering range and spinning easily?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by msportdan, May 31, 2015.

  1. F2Chump

    F2Chump Registered

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    Yep, a different one to suit budget wheels, although maybe it's G27 specific.
    I'll get back to you on this, we have other stuff to figure out first:cool:
     
  2. 88mphTim

    88mphTim racesimcentral.net

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    There already is. In the sim go to settings, controllers, click load.
     
  3. F2Chump

    F2Chump Registered

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    Yep, done that, but "I" still have a number of problems with some rf2 cars, but i don't want to say much for the moment (for reasons you'll understand later).
     
  4. Z06Trackman

    Z06Trackman Registered

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    Thanks for checking. I made a mistake in my earlier post on how Karts handle. I related caster to kingpin angle instead of camber to kingpin angle. Kingpin angle is irrelevant to the discussion and I shouldn't have mentioned it. I will edit to correct now, but the main tenants of that post were correct: you can't use caster in Karts the way you do in cars, and set-up of Karts is much different than cars. I didn't have my coffee yet when I wrote that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2015
  5. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    The 'proper weight' you're feeling, where low speed and high speed are giving you the force you're looking for, is not how things are in the real car with the proper default caster setting. Changing caster isn't just about FFB, you're actually changing the way the car turns (no, not just how hard it is to turn the steering wheel).

    If the steering in the real car, with a real setup, is lighter at low speed and heavier during high speed cornering, doesn't it slightly concern you that your setup adjustment is making those forces close to identical? Don't you think that could be a symptom of something being less than optimal?

    Unless it was in a different thread, I don't think TechAde has said that.

    Then get a wheel that allows it.

    Failing that, the STS seems the logical option. Upsetting the geometry of the car purely to get 'better' FFB is not a great option, and Tim's right to be concerned this will become some sort of go-to option that then breaks the simulation for many people in other ways. (remember procmask=3? Still people popping up using it, because it became a go-to option and now it's done when it shouldn't be...)
     
  6. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    I wish people would read.

    Where did I ever say the forces at low speed and high speed are the same or similar? I said they were authentic/proper/etc., which they are with caster at 9 degrees or above. How many *&(^*!%#$ times do I have say that the FFB is perfect in this car? Just as it is in almost every other ISI car and several mod cars like the ASR open wheelers. The forces are firm at low speeds and weight-up as you would expect when aero forces come into play. Is it exactly authentic? Of course not. Does it use the full range of my CSW wheel and not cause clipping at one end or limp noodle feeling at the other end?--yes. That's all I can ask for.

    1) Playing with torque settings is stupid and counter-productive. TechAde explained exactly why above from a technical perspective. From a common sense perspective I already explained why it would make no sense to adjust a global setting that works perfectly for 19 cars to try to fix a problem with car #20. Those are set-once-and-forget settings that correspond to your hardware. I already have mine set-up properly, thank you.

    2) The real DW-12 has the heaviest steering of any known race car today. It is not power steering. The concept that it would at least feel medium heavy out of the box in a sim is not particularly radical or complicated.

    3) The DW-12 (or the karts) do not need to feel artificially light or artificially anything else to work properly throughout the entire force range, including maximum force. They can operate without any extreme or bothersome clipping while still feeling authentic (we had a nice description of real karting earlier--read it if you haven't already), which is relatively heavy even at the lowest possible speeds. The ISI programmers and designers are not idiots. They generally know what they are doing and are building a sim, not a video game (that needs to be more predictable and consistent in feel or users will start complaining).

    4) The one and only glitch in this pathway of high quality is the caster setting on the DW-12. It is so difficult to try to get a sim car to feel great on so many different designs of hardware that once in a while, things trip-up and probably only for certain hardware. The F2 is the classic example where about half of users thinks is totally borked and the other half love it. The current design responds differently to different hardware. ISI is improving and figuring things out. How many people thought the Brabham felt like crap? Or the Cobra or the Palatov? Very, very few. So ISI released the DW-12 with a caster setting that I can only assume works well for some wheels and configurations, but certainly doesn't on mine. 19 out of 20 cars feel sublime on my rig with no adjustments. All I have said is that the group of us who need to crank up the caster should have been told that cranking up the caster is a good idea. Or, perhaps with an update they can make the CD-12 perform like their other cars...

    5) ...which leads to the confusion about whether that is possible. Tim is trying to explain that the limp noodle feel is on purpose because of the extreme range of high to low forces, etc. Sorry, but not true for my wheel. I am sure it may be true for lower powered wheels. So as a result we have an argument about something that isn't broken and go off into multiple ways to "fix it" that don't actually fix the problem and cause other problems. This is dumb.

    6) I am willing to change a simple caster setting to get authentic-feeling steering response and weight--even if adjusting the caster on the real car doesn't do that. And you don't have to state that like its news--I already pointed out pages ago that of course a simple caster adjustment doesn't have such a big effect on the real car. If it did, they wouldn't be debating adding power steering and there wouldn't be articles and comments all over the place about how heavy (and problematic) the steering is.

    7) We don't have a caster setting on the F2. ISI please add one or some other equivalent if you plan to use the same low-powered wheel-biased FFB defaults for the F2 update that you used on the DW-12. That way, everyone can be happy.

    8) Don't want to use caster to resolve FFB problems? Well then get in there and redesign the sim. I'd like to not have to use super sampling to get rid of jaggies and flickering shadows. Been waiting 10 years so far for that. I am not holding my breath that this can be easily resolved when the extreme force range needs to be mapped on to various "toy" wheels that have dramatically different capabilities and mechanical characteristics. But maybe the people with strong opinions here can advise ISI.
     
  7. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    You know you could help avoid a lot of this circular discussion if you just provided the info you obviously have about the torque encountered at the steering wheel in the real cars, at low and high speed. I tried a quick bit of googling but only found some references to heavy steering/kickback, driver thumb and wrist injuries from kickback/collisions, and proposed power steering.

    I'm not responding to your 8 'points' because they seem largely unrelated to the couple of things I said, which you mostly ignored.
     
  8. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    Sorry, you said I should I get a wheel that allows for a realistic feeling. I already have one and paid dearly for it.

    Sorry, you said that STS is the logical option to solve a problem that doesn't exist, and even it did exist, it wouldn't be the right solution as explained by TechAde already.

    Sorry, you seem to know what weight I am feeling in my wheel and are able to determine that it is not correct or does not correspond with the real car. This is so mind-boggling as to not be worthy of a comment.

    I already explained that you were mistaken about forces being the same or similar at low and high speeds.

    What did you say that I ignored?
     
  9. Redpxl

    Redpxl Registered

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    What wheel are you using?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2015
  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    If your wheel can produce the max force this car produces, and you're using the rF2 Steering torque capability setting to properly replicate the simulated forces at your wheel, then if you think the FFB with caster at 6 is too low you're saying the game is producing too little torque at the (virtual) steering wheel. Fair enough. So again... what are you basing that on?

    STS is a way to boost lower forces and give a wheel 'more FFB' in general. Useful for cheaper/weaker wheels if you don't want to increase clipping but want more FFB in lower force situations. Of course the feedback is no longer linear... that's what STS at 1.0 means. As TechAde said, if you're using a wheel that can't produce the force you can't get real forces, so it's a matter of how you want to compromise.

    You want more force where there is currently weak force. You're getting that by putting the caster on 9, while ignoring the effects that could have on car behaviour completely separate to the steering wheel feedback. If caster 6 is giving you 10% force at low speed and 100% at high speed, and caster 9 is giving you a range of 70-100%, that's relatively 'close to identical'. I know I don't know exactly what you're getting at the wheel, because you haven't said. But again, you also haven't told us what it should be.

    What we do know for sure is that the DW12 won't give proportionally higher FFB compared to much slower cars unless you use the capability setting to scale all forces correctly, but I hope we're not arguing about that because that's ISI's approach as has been stated (and anyone can overcome by using that capability setting... but of course it'll make most cars very weak on weak wheels, because... they're weak).

    You said "I also said the same thing that TechAde said about caster not having this dramatic effect on the real car". I said I can't see where he said that. TechAde as far as I can see hasn't talked about any specific figures for this car at all, just example torque figures in explaining what STS does, and what STM does.

    You're saying the forces with caster on 9 are authentic. Based on what?
     
  11. Golanv

    Golanv Registered

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    http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/news/a18270/you-think-driving-an-indy-car-is-easy/

    When talking about the forces in play, gives some idea about the experience of driving one of the DW12's.
     
  12. msportdan

    msportdan Banned

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    okay easy method fix for the dw12, F2 and any car feeling light on your wheel.

    Basically what spinelli mentioned:-

    1) create your main wheel profile
    2) Duplicate that in controlset folder (ie: mine is GTE.json, now I have also GTEINDY.json) so controls all the same.
    3)Edit indy json with note pad.
    4) Alter "Steering torque sensitivity":1.5,
    "Steering torque sensitivity#":"Sensitivity curve applied to representable torques: 0.0=low 1.0=linear 2.0=high", I found 2.0 this best on my wheel.
    5) Save indy json, let it overwrite.
    6) Load up dw12 and preferred track.
    7) Into Settings/controls Load the indy.json
    8) viola a car specific control set for the dw12.

    Best is that you can do all this when your actually in session, by alttabbing out dup files and edit with preffered sts. then back in game load up new profile. No need to restart game all the time.

    Sweet thanks guys.

    Im still not sure if STM or STS is the best feel yet. Ill test further,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2015
  13. Redpxl

    Redpxl Registered

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    That's a much better solution, at least you're not altering the car behavior that way (caster), but only FFB as it should.
     
  14. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Glad it seems to be working for you. :)

    I find it a mystery how so many people have different linearity preferences for their pedals (the sensitivity options in-game, as well as real-life drivers) yet I almost always fail to hear/see any mention of that setting's FFB version (STS) when it comes to tuning FFB for different preferences and wheels/hardware. Maybe it needs more exposure or something; perhaps placing it in-game (along with STM and framerate limiter :)) would be a good idea.

    By the way - and I'm not 100% sure about this - I think STS is literally just like the sensitivity slider for your pedals's input, but for FFB power instead, while STM is setting the minimum power that any force will be. So, one is just adjusting the linearty (or non-linearty) of how early/late the power of the overall range of FFB forces will come into play (STS), while the other one is as if you're saying "hey RF2, please don't make any FFB outputs ever be less strong than 'X' amount of power" (STM).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2015
  15. Justy

    Justy Registered

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    Very interesting read, it certainly puts the experience of driving a DW12 into perspective. To put it into context a clubsport V2 wheel, according to the info on Fanatec's website produces 7nm of torque and the T500, according to a post from Techade, produces 6nm. I'm willing to bet that the real DW12 requires substantially more torque applied to it, to turn it under high loads. In fact, if my calculations are correct, (could very easily be wrong, as I'm not sure if I've converted this correctly, so not stating this as fact), but 35 pounds would equate to almost 150nm of turning effort required to steer the real car. If that is the case, then even a fancy pants Clubsport wheel, or even an uber fancy pants high end wheel, regardless of how much it cost, is, relatively speaking, a toy. Frankly anyone expecting a realistic/true to life experience from their FFB wheel, is somewhat deluded in my honest opinion (sorry :eek: :eek: ).

    Anyone with a wheel capable of producing that amount of torque (I have no idea if such a FFB wheel exists) will probably get an experience close to that of the real car, at all speeds. Because ISI have modelled the FFB in the correct way and I for one, hope that they do not change that policy. For everyone else, a compromise has to be made, using the tools ISI have provided for us; be that through adjusting FFB multiplier, FFB linearity, or whatever. I increased the FFB multiplier slightly for the DW12 (think it's set to 1.2) and I am happy with how that feels. No doubt the FFB will probably clip under extreme loads, but I can live with that.

    One question though. Is there any reason why the FFB linearity option I've seen mentioned in this thread, couldn't be added as a vehicle specific option, to the in-game UI? Maybe that would help satisfy people's complaints about the FFB with certain cars.

    Apologies for dragging this thread even further off-topic.

    Cheers
    Justin
     
  16. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    I personally can't see an Indycar even being 60 Nm let alone 100-150 Nm. I have my doubts about whether it even reaches or surpasses 45 Nm. Not in terms of steering resistance at-least, but maybe extremely quick forces are different (like quick bumps, dips, curbs, etc.).

    I also heard about the same torque numbers for the T500RS and CSW V2 - about 5.5 Nm for the T500RS and about 7.3 Nm for the CSW V2.
     
  17. Justy

    Justy Registered

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    Fair enough, as I say, I could very easily have worked that out wrong. But even so, lets say the real car requires just 40nm turning effort, to turn the steering, that is still a substantial difference to our own FFB wheels.
     
  18. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    That passage is pretty ambiguous. If you take it to mean 35 lb-ft of torque then it's indeed ~47Nm which is a lot. But even then I'm dubious about the liberal stating of that figure for turns 1 and 2 at mid-ohio which are very different corners... which leads me to think it's more a known 'maximum' he's just throwing out because it's in his head, and the forces in those particular turns might be a bit lower.

    A good reference would be great. I would have thought ISI would seek out some data to cross-check against in this and other areas of cars they model (as a sanity check to make sure nothing's gone horribly wrong or bad mistakes have been made) but whether they're willing or able to share is probably another matter entirely.

    *edit: and...

    Yep, pretty sure that's right. As far as I know STM is a fraction of full force, which is why when it's used the figure is normally around 0.04 or 0.08. Setting that to numbers approaching or exceeding 1.0 would make a mess of things I'd imagine.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2015
  19. stonec

    stonec Registered

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    I think wheels for sim racing markets might never reach real forces of certain cars. You don't want to experience real forces always, especially not under collisions. Just look at what happens when an F1 driver is about to hit the wall: the thing they are always told to do is to free their grip of the wheel before contact takes place to avoid injury. You don't want a sim racing wheel which would potentially cause injury to your arms.
     
  20. Guimengo

    Guimengo Guest

    The complaint is to have some form of force/detail emulation that is achieved with a proper setup, but done to our widely commercially available wheels. But expressed in different manners, quite often with incorrect arguments.
    I understand, but despite owning one of said "lesser" wheels, I'd not want that because I don't know how it could compromise everything else. Continuing to be devil's advocate, it would be interesting if it somehow be possible to have different wheels load different parameters (assuming such would be possible) to simulate weight and forces.

    ps: It is sometimes amusing "unhiding" a ignored post to read the argument.
     

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