Ideal racing line in the wet

Hi there,

As most of you probably know already the racing line on a wet track is different then on a dry track. On a wet track you want to accelerate in a straighter line and you want to avoid all the rubber on the track because rubber on a wet track is slippery.

When thinking of that I'd like to know if ISI has already thought of these facts. At the moment we have Realroad which increases grip on more rubbered in surfaces. When in the wet, do these surfaces decrease in grip to the point that it's more slippery than the rest of the track?

I think the technology for this is already in place, we just need to be aware this does happen in real life and it would be very cool and realistic to have this in rF2 too! Imagine your race being from dry to wet. You have to take corners differently to post faster times then the competition. Even móre simulation!

Tim, could you confirm any of this?

 

That's a good question, I'd really like to know. I had some rainy go-karts experiences at surfaces with a lot of tyre rubber and I must say that's almost impossible to drive fast when you're at the regular dry line. Even countouring the longer line you'll go faster because the gaining of grip.

 

Yes, It's an important point

 

I would be surprised if this was not fully integrated in the gold product. Hopefully this is already in the works.

 

Actually, the rubber in a wet track isn't more slippery.
However, the outside line usually has more grip because the dry racing line is smoother, due to asphalt wear.

I think I have read this somewhere here in the forums, and it makes sense.
Anyway, the reason is not important, the different ideal racing line applies, and it would be nice to have it.

 

I have an idea. Scrap all the dynamic stuff and build more tracks. That will get you different racing line. LOL

 

I think you are wrong here. At least, to me it was explained differently. Roads are full of tiny holes. When on the ideal line, rubber will be laid down on track. This proces will fill the holes with rubber. But then, when driving in the wet, that becomes a problem: the water can't be forced into those holes, so there will be a tiny film of water between your wheels and the road. Outside of the ideal line, the water will be forced into those holes, leaving you with more road-tyre contact, thus more grip.

Now this doesn't mean that the 'ideal' line shouldn't be driven in the wet at all times. Cars like F1 have tyres that move so much water through their grooves, and also so much downforce from their wings, that they can drive the shortest line (outside-inside-outside) in most cases anyway (although there have been examples in the past that even in F1 the wide line (outside all the way) can be quicker)


PS: I don't know 100% sure if this is correct, but this is how it was explained to me, and it makes very much sense to me.

 

Its soooo complex, some turns the regular line is better, then on other turns "wrong" lines are better. Also, ive seen one year f1 take certain lines in the wet, and then at the same track in a different year in the wet they were taking different lines from the year before as if it was all different now, and some of the rain lines the year before were closer to the regular line, and some of the regular lines the year before were now being taken as more of a rain line.

Its soooo complex to figure out which corners are going to need the racing line, which are going to need the rain line, which are going to need a combination etc etc etc. So its never set in stone, but I guess a super basic version of this ingame would be better than none, but it changes in real life depending on sooo many different things and your always searching different lines and feeling it out corner to corner, condition change to condition change, car to car/ set up to setup, track to track etc, so alot of that un-predictability and guess work may be out the window if its too overly simplified.

The problem with NOT making it simplified is im not even sure if in real life engineers have a proper understanding of this, so how can we model it in game. THere may be a few theories, but I dont think there are any set in stone rules on "corner a will require this line from entry to exit because it is sloped this way, and made out of this kind of concrete, and it behaves this way in this temperature, and it absorbs this much water, and it has this much of rubber laid down on it, and its the kind of rubber from this manufacturer which isnt as bad as the other manufacturer when it comes to making it slippery when wet and the car your driving is using these kinds of tyres which behave like this on this kind of surface, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

 

My poor memory says to me that aquaplaning is not there yet, but it is supposed to come at some point, but don't trust my memory, he is not honest guy, often lies to me

 

Some good points made here.

However, do you guys feel some basic implementation should be there or do you think it's too complicated to simulate this in a basic way it is better to leave it out?

 

What is that basic way?

It is _very_ complicated if you look how grip is made, to have little peek open TGM file, scroll down to realtime section, you can see parameters about tire thread effect, also lines like SlidingMicroDeformationCurve, SlidingMacroDeformationCurve, so there are lot of these things in and when more features in engine are enabled these will have more meaning, maybe we even then know what they really do as currently it is not 100% clear or if someone knows he has not relplied to modding help section about these.

For waterplaning I think that it will come when it is come and it will affect to racing lines for sure, but at this moment there is not much point to really think too much of that as there is not much information about it.

I would love to know how they end up to those parameters though, like for example:
RubberPressureSensitivityPower=(-0.085,5000,500000,1) // power,offset,nominal_max,normalize

I know what it is, I know what it does, but I don't know how ISI ended up to those values.

To understand wet weather effects properly, I think it is required to understand how to make tires properly, many things that don't make sense comes clear when one learns more about tires and road, but it is huge mountain to climb, at least I feel so.

 

This is the post I was talking about:
http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/4421-A-bit-of-an-interesting-read-regarding-tires?p=52880&viewfull=1#post52880

 

I don't know about rubber being slippery, it's more likely the racing line being compressed and smoother, that is why you can overtake on the outside on a wet track, because the water goes into the racing surface, while on the racing line it sits between your tires and that racing line.

But anyway, yes, we are aware of all this. I've posted about it before, at length.

 

So, don't think and test by yourself instead...

Rubber in wet track IS more slippery.

 

Well, maybe you are right and it is more slippery.
What I meant is that it isn't the reason why sometimes the outside line is faster. At least that's what the article I referenced says, and I believe it.

 

Most rubber gets washed away when it rains heavily, that's the main piece of evidence about that... It's WAY more likely that it is the smoothness and compacted aggregate of the racing line, and the water sitting ontop rather than inside it.

 

Thankyou for answering. Didn't know any information on this subject has been given earlier, though.

 

I know, it's not a problem, I just said because I don't have the time to type it all again. Someone else linked to the thread.