[REL] Howston G4 - Modded - 1967 Endurance Racing (Proto/Sports/GT)

Discussion in 'Third Party Content' started by woochoo, Jan 5, 2015.

  1. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Wouldn't think that 2F becomes very unstable with wing at low drag position you still can drive fast in straight and gentle turns, but you certainly have to be driving the car with way greater care to stay in control, usually simply must go slower through some places. It is very interesting car indeed. One interesting thing about front flap is that it opened automatically at about 190km/h and chanelled air under the car, which is really strange, this means that at low drag setting front developed too much downforce which unbalanced the car, I can't think of other explanation. Perhaps they used it only for Le mans ? I also guess that they would disable front flap for some tracks, I don't think any other track made sense for front flap.

    Rear wing must also have been equally important as air brake system. In one source it says that wing at high attack angle lowered top speed by 15mp/h, other source gives much larger figure. Anyway if it was something between 25-to-40khm/h of drag for the wing that is as tall as skyscraper its resultant drag force location must have been quite high. This means that aerodynamic drag would result in backwards pitching moment of force. This I can also believe not being ideal in some cases, there must have been proper front downforce to counter balance that. Right now I have pretty optymistic settings, I still couldn't do 3'35'600 laptime at spa, best so far was 3'40, could ISI SPA 1966 be slightly too slow for some reason ? Of course I may not be Phil Hill, though I don't think he was attempting suicide that day, even more so as his closest rival in qualification was Mirage M1 GT40 (probably driven by Ickx) that did 3'39'0.
     
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  2. Christian Dauger

    Christian Dauger Registered

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    by cons, one without the other is not possible undriveable.:confus:
     
  3. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Went back to Le Grand Circuit with the Chaparral.(it has been a long time) There is a noticeable difference of the top speed, with the wing angled vs flat. at least 5kph, didn't really begin looking at that til the last few laps so that may not be accurate yet.

    The choices for gearing options is via the final gear. the tallest gear seems a little too tall, and the next shortest gear over-revs on the Mulsanne and begins overheating due to revs after a couple of laps. It might help to provide another ring between the last two options.
    Cars coming out of the garage area can cause mayhem with pitting cars.

    Even with the auto clutch, you need to lift the throttle when upshifting. Downshifting seems less important but I was trying to blip the throttle as I downshifted. I'm not sure I was getting a huge benefit from the wing, I could see the kph climb, but rarely ran down other cars.(this may have been a symptom of the the too tall top gear)

    I hope you get a chance to drive this car, it REALLY challenges your muscle memory NOT to clutch and keep clear if you angled or flattened the wing. I 'think' the real car wasn't a toggle, but acted similar to the brake pedal. When the pedal was not pressed, the wing was at rest in the angled position. When the driver wanted to flatten the wing he pressed and held the wing pedal down. Releasing the pedal automatically returned the wing to the high downforce angled position. rF2 doesn't have a hold/release option (that I know of) so we are left with the choice of on/off. I would AGAIN, like to thank Woochoo for digging deep to bring as much of the Chappy alive as possible.

    Oh, and for what it is worth. Replays of incidents early on were at full speed. But after 20 minutes or so, the replays then began to only play in sloooow motion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  4. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

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    but I know a man who could add one.
     
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  5. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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    You're welcome :)
    Yes, you can look forward to the cockpit indicator light in the next update.
    And also look forward to mantasisg's more in-depth interpretation of the winged white car's physics. He's been doing plenty of reading and testing. It should show my interpretation of the aero effects to be a bit simplistic, and there will also be the interaction with the more car-specific suspension and wheel track/base
     
  6. jimagn

    jimagn Registered

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    I have been privileged to "listen in" as woochoo and mantasisg have been conversing about the physics of this mod, not just the 2F. These two have been putting in an incredible amount of research, testing, and coding to make this mod's physics as realistic as possible. You have no idea how much work it is to make the Howston Group 4 act like a Chaparral 2F and a Porsche 911 and a Mini! Mind boggling. I hope that, upon release of the next update, this mod gets the attention and appreciation it deserves. Some drivers may look at it and see mildly modified Howston Group 4 machines. Stop looking! Get in and drive them. All of them!
     
  7. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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  8. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I must have read that article at some point years and years ago. I clearly remember Gurney convincing AJ to slow down early at the end of the Mulsanne. Thanks for the link.
     
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  9. [ODS]Arnaud

    [ODS]Arnaud Registered

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    IMO it's very difficult for me to drive with a Porsche 911 which look like a Lola T70 even if the physics are based on 911. For proto the mod is great (a big thanks to you guys!) but it would be great to have another 3D model for GTs.

    Maybe a collaboration with BorekS who have made some 3D models (Renault Alpine M64, Renault Alpine A210, CD Peugeot SP66, Costin-Nathan GT, Abarth 1300 OT and Matra MS630) of those 1967 cars is possible? I don't know but I like to dream...

    https://simgarage.nolimit.cz/
     
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  10. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Well thats of course personal thing, some may find it more annoying, some maybe will don't mind it at all. Personally I have had same idea at first, and it just felt not right to drive GT car in that sitting position in reference of wheelbase and height, and then comes all model nuances - interior, exterior.... after some time focus on model decreases, and focus on physics increases.

    That being said, although those are all HG4 models that are altered, so many 3D models + skins has been made by woochoo in such way that they definitely got some of the key design cues of the cars that they are representing. Then you will also get more realistic wheelbases and trackwidths + ride heights. After that comes pitch, roll and yaw rotational behaviour which I also consider as visual aspects as well as physical. Then top speed, acceleration, deceleration, wheelspins, wheel locks.... After that if you'll devote more than 10 minutes per car, you should start discovering the subtle details of handling of any car, especially if you'll increase pace gradually avoiding incidents and discovering yours and cars capabilities gently.

    911s Will be difficult in anyway :D But it really is not, it will just require very different driving technique, after that it really is not so very difficult, but you don't want to give too much of steering control for an engine weight inertia that is rotating the car (when you really throw the car into a turn), instead you have to share steering with it, often turning with straight steering as car slides or even turning in slightly more to increase rear slip angle and keep rear end sliding, it is wonderful sensation for which fully dedicated 3D modeling is not critically necessary.

    The thing about models is difficult, IMO Woochoo already did a massive job, as well as with 1954 cars too. Fully dedicated models of course would be better, but it would be an insane work to do. Developing models of such cars would take multiple months of almost complete devotion of spare time per car. Of course some of those cars appears to be available somewhere, or being in the works somewhere, but there are a couple of issues with it. First is that it would be needed to have cars in consistent quality, imagine you would have most cars models and immersion would be good, but then you'd find out that some models has immersion breaking issues and bugs you a lot. Second is that it is no doubt necessary to get all permissions right and respect original authors from whom you source the material, people who use mods should also demand for this to be transparent and not just take, let alone making youtube videos about it when you have thousands of people in audience (you know what I am talking about). So I think the way Woochoo decided to create these packs is the best way so far - you get consistent quality and full usability now and not in 2030, while at the same time leaving the possibilities for future of these packs which I suppose also depends on interest on this type of cars. Plus the mod is legit and fair, it is not a collection of 3D models "from a friend" that some hero brings to community.
     
  11. [ODS]Arnaud

    [ODS]Arnaud Registered

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    The models I was talking about are scratch-made but I'm agree with you for the consistent quality problem. I've never said Woochoo did not made a massive job. It's already a massive job indeed.
     
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  12. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    No, it was not directly an answer to you, but in general post for this sub-topic about the matter of 3D models.
     
  13. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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    I've talked to BorekS about it. He is willing to allow conversion of the cars that are already publicly available, but that doesn't include a 911, or the other slower sports/protos you mentioned because as far as i know they're still wip. And you might also have read that he's taking a break from modding so i'm not expecting those to become available soon.

    I would be interested to test his released car models in this G4 mod. The MkIV, 330 P3/P4, 330 P4, 412P, 907LH. Then there would be a situation of those cars having radically different shapes to all the rest, which might be about as distracting as it is accurate. Which is why it would need a test. So few cars looking so different, and the rest looking a lot like a G4. BorekS' design intent has also been to do lower detailed/more efficient models so that they work well with the older titles and large grids that his mod is designed for. So there would be some different body shapes, but also potentially some distracting detail/fidelity differences. If he had a full field of the '67 cars available, all with similar fidelity, it would be much less of an issue, though obviously a lot more work for him, which i'm not expecting since he's taking a break.

    So, as I say i'd be happy to test the available meshes, though i'd prefer someone else to play a big role in getting them integrated with the G4 mod. It's not something i'm prepared to dive into right now, so some help would be the best way for that to happen at the moment. And it would only be a test. But it might turn out better than expected.

    But my real preference would be for some extremely dedicated person or people to commit to making the full field to a modern rF2 graphical standard, though with an emphasis on efficiency of the models/textures. I have zero expectation of that occurring though. It would be a lot of work. Something like 29 different body meshes, though some are quite similar. To ease the required work I'd have no concerns about the G4 cockpits being used/modified as needed. Please, someone, please join in. These are great cars from a great period. And there are already sounds and physics, and the rest of the mod structure is in place.
    Just needs meshes, materials/textures, and gen files :) I think it would be a satisfying project. Easy ;)
    Even just a few of the more popular car bodies in a current rF2 fidelity might fit ok with the mod, as a start, compared to the G4. But not ripped MkIVs or P4s please.

    So there we have it. This is a great opportunity for more people to join in :)
     
  14. [ODS]Arnaud

    [ODS]Arnaud Registered

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    Sadly, I'm not a 3D modder. I'm just able to do some very basic stuff into blender. But I can be the guy who do the BorekS' mesh conversion test if you want.
     
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  15. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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    You're welcome to have a go at splicing BorekS' cars into the G4 mod :)
     
  16. [ODS]Arnaud

    [ODS]Arnaud Registered

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    Btw, BorekS is active in the F1 Legend Racing mod.
     
  17. Christian Dauger

    Christian Dauger Registered

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    Allez, les gars ... nous pourrons faire quelque chose de plus pour ce super mod ...:D:D

    Come on, guys ... we'll be able to do something more to this super mod ...:D:D
     
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  18. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Someone else, several months back, brought up a wobble that occurs at high speeds. I felt that wobble today after the 2nd lap when tire temps got up to normal temps. It felt like a flat spot, but occurred only after a certain speed was achieved. And went away once the high speeds ended. (Chaparral at Le Grand Circuit.)
    and yes, I NEED that wing position light. (sheesh)
     
  19. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Flatspots and general wheel weight disbalance feel does depend on speed.
     
  20. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I should have also added I don't think he was using this mod. I'll test some more to see if it re-appears. thanks.
     

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