How real do you want your simulator to be?

Martin Vindis

Martin Vindis

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When we're talking about simulators we talk realism. But how close to reality would you guys want a sim to be?
Would you like to see debris and very slight contact to be able to cut your tire? Hitting anti cuts too hard and ruin the suspension? Possibility for extreme weather so the race gets red flagged?
What if you had to buy a new car every time you crashed?
 
M.Vindis said:
When we're talking about simulators we talk realism. But how close to reality would you guys want a sim to be?
Would you like to see debris and very slight contact to be able to cut your tire? Hitting anti cuts too hard and ruin the suspension? Possibility for extreme weather so the race gets red flagged?
What if you had to buy a new car every time you crashed?
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That would be too close to reality .. but otherwise that sounds great! :)
 
But such a motion seat would be something nice. To experience every pothole and bump. Every blow in the back when switching .. I just have to save even more .
 
We're far away. You're more into details in your post, but the big frame is still very WIP all around.

10 minutes watching Youtube, even the best physics like rF2 and you'll notice that virtual racing cars allow much more crazy driving than a real car. I was watching Max Verstappen driving the Oreca LMP2 and it's quite clear he was exploiting the physics flaw every corner by using a grip that doesn't exist in real life. This is proved by his lap time, as fast as the real Toyota TS050 with a much inferior spec car. Let alone the kerbs, if you try to ride on curbs like that he would be in a cemetery right now (Allan Simonsen unfortunately proved that in a field test at Mulsanne straight entry).

Second thing is weather. The track must have variable grip due temperature variations. From a certain TºC, the grip should drastically decay. And when it rains, I've never seen any modern racing simulator do a minimal decent job (ACC could be the first one).

I'm afraid we have some decades until the line between RL and Sim be really blurred.

Edit - Oreca instead of Norma

M.Vindis said:
When we're talking about simulators we talk realism. But how close to reality would you guys want a sim to be?
Would you like to see debris and very slight contact to be able to cut your tire? Hitting anti cuts too hard and ruin the suspension? Possibility for extreme weather so the race gets red flagged?
What if you had to buy a new car every time you crashed?
Click to expand...
 
ECAR_Tracks said:
We're far away. You're more into details in your post, but the big frame is still very WIP all around.

10 minutes watching Youtube, even the best physics like rF2 and you'll notice that virtual racing cars allow much more crazy driving than a real car. I was watching Max Verstappen driving the Oreca LMP2 and it's quite clear he was exploiting the physics flaw every corner by using a grip that doesn't exist in real life. This is proved by his lap time, as fast as the real Toyota TS050 with a much inferior spec car. Let alone the kerbs, if you try to ride on curbs like that he would be in a cemetery right now (Allan Simonsen unfortunately proved that in a field test at Mulsanne straight entry).

Second thing is weather. The track must have variable grip due temperature variations. From a certain TºC, the grip should drastically decay. And when it rains, I've never seen any modern racing simulator do a minimal decent job (ACC could be the first one).

I'm afraid we have some decades until the line between RL and Sim be really blurred.

Edit - Oreca instead of Norma
Click to expand...
Yeah.... The question wasn't how real it is but rather, in a hypothetical perfect world where 100% realism would be possible, how real do you want it to be? What parts would you want the developers to leave out? Cost is probably one thing, but what else?
 
I am for hardcore realism, every little bit helps. Better rules, better physics, better immersion. I rarely talk about physics, but just been thinking about one aspect of rF2 I'd like to improve in terms of physics (aside from well known issues of course). You know how car shakes when tires are locked in real life? Somewhat similar shaking happens when tires skid. As a lucky owner of the motion system, I am under impression rF2 does not simulate that. Maybe it is a bug in motion software, but I do doubt it, because revving up motion comes through, but not much stronger effects mentioned above. For now, those can be simulated/faked using transducers, but I certainly hope will be implemented in the future.

So, I am all four for hardcore realism. And, rF2 delivers a lot of that, I would dare saying the most, I've not experienced depth like this in any game, and that's why I am here. I guess I would leave out 2 things out of simulation - expense of real life racing and physical injury risks. Anything and everything else is very welcome.
 
M.Vindis said:
When we're talking about simulators we talk realism. But how close to reality would you guys want a sim to be?
Would you like to see debris and very slight contact to be able to cut your tire? Hitting anti cuts too hard and ruin the suspension? Possibility for extreme weather so the race gets red flagged?
What if you had to buy a new car every time you crashed?
Click to expand...
Definitely 100% yes for the first two. Red flagged races... maybe if there's live stewarding, and in an online race. Also maybe yes to the last one in a racing league. Also depends on what you buy it with. Real money, or in-game credits that you can earn somehow.

As for realism in general.. Have been thinking about this in regards to rF2 lately. And I would like the sim to be as dynamic as it claims to be. As already said air/track temp should interact and also affect tyre temps, pressure, grip.. Different compounds should be a legitimate option in races.

I mostly stick to GT cars of all sorts so this may not apply to open-wheelers or other high(er) downforce cars. Chances are that running any given car suspension as soft and as low a ride height and lowest tyre pressures yields grip and faster lap time with basically no drawbacks. In other sims you start getting big handling issues if you go too soft with the suspension.

/mini rant

Sorry, just been kind of frustrated with the dynamic/realism aspect lately :D
 
Emery said:
Never noticed skidding causes shake. Here's a Miata on a hillclimb with locked brakes from 75 mph all the way to the rock. The locked brakes start shortly after 0:57.
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I am not claiming to be a physics expert. Maybe shake is stronger at slower speed, don't know. So, maybe rF2 is correct after all.

Man, just checked your video, you were joking? :)

Now, going back to the OP, before any shake simulation, cut tire, red flags and other things would be stellar. Really good points. One day.
 
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Without going too deep in the Sci-Fi of simulation, I think that one of the bigger separation between real life and simulation are "localized peculiarities of contact surface". Today even on LaserScanned Nords or Sebring with all the FFB detail, I still have the confidence that they terrain is solid and firm, in real life this is mainly true, but there are little anomalies that are enough to upset a car at grip limit. For example: fallen leaves after a rain, somewhere I've read that a large one could be enough to make a tire slip, Even in new asphalt there are parts where the gravel that is into the mixture does not "melt" and form little patches that act like marbles, without considering localized difference in surface "density". Even in the grass today we are quite confident that putting a tire here or there won't kill the car, in real life grass can hide all sort of dangers , dangers that can turn a safe offroad to a messy crash. I think that this enhancement in "resolution" of the simulation are not far away, maybe they could be already done, I don't know if we could relate with them in a simulation as we lack all the bodily informations of real life racing. Another thing that I would really like to see is a sort of FEM (finite element simulation) for suspension parts, so that their structural integrity is constantly put into question, as someone already said, there are curbs in real life that will rip your tires away if you take them at full throttle.
 
Things I want in sims that occur in real life:
- Wind affecting a car in a realistic way - i.e. causing you to go wide easier if it's from behind, and conversely helping you brake if it comes from the front. Side wind should also cause you to be more cautious if it's blowing in the same direction that you're turning to.
- Marbles need to be more realistic, i.e. build-up on your tyres, and it should take you a realistic amount to clear them.
- Dirt - same as marbles, really.
- Wet weather needs to require karting lines etc. to go faster. Currently, all games still require you to drive the normal dry line, just slower, to be the fastest you can be in the wet. Racing line should be more off-limits due to the rubbered in surface combined with the water.
- Restricted amount of tyres. As per real life. Some games already do this, but rF2 doesn't.
- Tyre graining. I get that this would be stupidly hard to recreate - but this is about what we want, not what can be done, right?
- Better damage. Currently, you can bend your steering a bit but still continue when you hit the wall quite hard. Real F1 cars, for example, get their entire corners ripped off when a fairly mild hit happens against a wall.

Things that are necessary evils in real life that we would do without if we had a choice, and that I don't want in games:
- Red flags, safety cars and VSC. This is purely required because of safety in real life - an aspect we don't have to worry about in real racing. It also ruins the merit of results - we saw that as recently as Sochi. I know we have safety cars already, but not many leagues use them.

I get that these make it more entertaining in a way, but I'd much rather have every race decided on merit. I don't like having a team spend millions, just to potentially lose out on revenue at the end of the season because they lost 10 points somewhere because they were unlucky, costing them a position or 2 in the constructor's championship. It kinda leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

If I want entertainment purely based on random luck, I'll watch some Roulette or Black Jack.
 
The Iron Wolf said:
I guess I would leave out 2 things out of simulation - expense of real life racing and physical injury risks. Anything and everything else is very welcome.
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This is my view too. But hell, just a working gearbox/clutch would be nice! :p

A couple of things that really do bug me about (the lack of) realism in sim racing, is entering a server and seeing the abuse/exploitation given to sim cars that would otherwise destroy a real life car. Exploiting track limits by riding kerbs on EVERY apex. In real life, after a few hits on a high kerb and you'd have at minimum bent your suspension arms/wishbones or steering track rods ends (BTCC excluded :D).

The second thing is regarding the transmission/gearbox. With little or no engine and gearbox damage simulated, it means drivers can just hammer five gears down in half a second without any thought about over-revving the engine or damaging components inside the box. Again, do this in real life and your gearbox would either explode or your engine con-rods would be trying to escape the block. I also get frustrated when I see people drive H-pattern shifter cars with paddles. But I appreciate some people don't have the hardware.

But yeah, anything that adds realism should be the ultimate aim... except for actual expense or physically getting hurt!
 
I’d like to see a few more realistic behaviours from AI following accidents. It’s incredibly immersion breaking to see an AI literally roll, smash into a wall, and then immediately point itself at the track and rejoin a race. I’ve seen this so many times coming over the mountain at Bathurst for example. Any car that’s been upside down should just be instantly retired. Any car that’s smashed into a wall at high speed could at least sit there for 30 seconds to simulate the driver being hurt or dazed. Given the complete lack of attention the AI gets in rF2, I doubt this’ll ever happen.
 
Yep for me ai as well.
But I think ai is where sims need to evolve which I don't think they have since Geoff crammonds games. In fact they have declined ed since then. I think we can all blame esports for the death of good ai..


Regarding physics ffb etc... There's only so much feedback they can give thru a ffb wheel. Unless u have all the motion equipment etc.

May be better weather Implementation also with ai puddles etc.
I think ams 2 will be our closest to the most complete working sim Or maybe not
 
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I'd like verything except the virtual dude getting hurt (tho could be nice for a career mode, an injury hitting ur chances badly :D ) and red flag for weather, I think it doesn't make much sense to have this one. Worst weather should go slightly bellow the point where a red flag would appear be it for visibility or tires not working (min track temp)
Red flag for crashes would be nice if you had rescue animated and the tow trucks from other parts of the track had to move to collect cars.
I think that realism in sims should be a must, however some comon sense should apply, red flag for track damage in a 60 minutes race for example taking 30+ minutes to fix could be a bad thing, at least it should be an option (works for 3h+ races imo)

On everything else it should be as realistic as possible, especially damage. IMO damage is the ultimate point for proper physics and race rules working correctly, cars in sims move way too much compared to how quicky they get stopped IRL. Animate the repairs while you are at it, no need to be perfect but something is better than the nothing we get nowadays.

Like I said other times: I'd like to start a sim and feel like in a real race, every one of them in the market right now lacks this feeling (reason why I dont understand why anyone would be a fanboy of a sim)
 
I think a sim to replicate snow or a storm is a waste of cpu power and resources. As real races are red flagged if too dangerous. Just have like race 07 kind of wet weather... Why devs have to make it harder for them selves Acc looking at you. And possibly ams 2 if it's like pc2

For immersion you can't beat the f1 series for feeling like a racing driver in a team, but that's not what I want from a sim that's a game. Imo a sim should be about racing with good ai or humans. Which has weather good tyre physics ffb penalties points flags etc etc. And even a championship creator. You don't see real motorsport simulators doing the f1 thing. But would like a bit more of the above in them of course. I suppose rf2 is actually closest to a real simulator but it needs to fix all the mentioned above to be a complete sim... It certainly doesn't need a bolkocks career mode. running your team doing emails and all that shit nah thanks

Actually hate typing on a fing phone sorry for all the bad grammar and typos I can't be bothered to go back and correct it. Sorry
 
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LokiD said:
I think a sim to replicate snow or a storm is a waste of cpu power and resources.
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and also dev resources. I'd rather devs first get driving on dry tarmac right, before spending resources on snow or dirt. For this you have rally games/sims.

I'd like a sim to have realistic physics/handling especially at and over the limit. By realistic I mean cars match real telemetry when driven by the same driver with similar setup and track conditions. Also the driver confirms the car feels and behaves the same to him (including over the limit). Something that S397 did with Norma. Ideally it's handling should be confirmed by few other independent drivers, that raced the car in real life. They should all give similar opinions regarding all handling aspects. Things like sound, graphics can be judged by anyone.
I realize in such car would cost more than in iRacing. But for instance it would be great to have a possibility to compare yourself on a laser scanned track to real drivers, knowing there are no inaccuracies (that i.e. allow you to drive over the limit because it's too forgiving, or vice versa) and hopefully no tricks/exploits can be used to be faster.
 
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For me nro.1 thing would be getting the driving and ffb related physics to be realistic on dry asphalt. I might prefer the ffb realism to be compromised a bit in that i don't want the steering feel to be worsened by simulating a shitty power steering system, since the feedback from steering is more important in sim than in real life.

Driving the cars on the limit on good conditions is what i want to do, so i would be against any forced realism that get in the way of that.
Actually it would be nice if there was a possibility to jump from garage straight on the track into moving car with warms tires.
 
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