Honesty speaking rF2 seems a lost cause

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by williang83, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    Consistently over a whole stint?
    Try this in ACC or AC and you will not :D (ACC is VERY sensitive to tyre pressures)
    Also AMS seems to have profitable results with tyre operation on reasonable pressures. But i don't want to start a "which sim is better battle". It's more about results in reality compared to sim world :) (Most sims aren't getting it right, that's why i said, rF2s tyre model lacks of features, regarding all the praise it always receive)
     
  2. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Yes I've also read that's most complex thing.
    But I guess you are not an expert on modern slicks and tire modeling in sims? I'm also not, but I think the following is not true:

    |"In simple tire models this always will be a fast transition, cause they can't simulate the complex tire state between stable and unstable"

    Where did you get that from? It's not that more advanced TM means/allows smoother transitions. With "simple" models like Pacejka based, when you have real empirical data, you(developer) can quickly make curves that are pretty accurate in most conditions. And if i.e. there's too fast transition, tires let go too quickly, you can easily fix that. Niels Heusinkveld showed that in one of his videos.
    In contrast, with rF2 you need much more time and effort, plus data, that is hard to get, to make tires accurate. Often the data isn't there, so the result may be quite off. So I think there's a lot of guesswork for modders, uness they can use S397 tires as reference. And even some ISI/S397 tires aren't based on this hard to get, detailed data, especially historic ones. If I understand correctly, you need detailed physical tire's dimensions and characteristics in order to correctly create it in rF2.

    Also AFAIK multi million dollars professional simulators use simple empirical based tire models.
    I fully agree, this and few other things, like proper braking, make you fast, and that's why I said this is most important in tire simulation and generally feels best in rF2. Yet I'm still concerned with what others seem to confirm:
    Also these cars may be too forgiving, because perhaps, past some point they should let go more rapidly. I already said that, but it would be great if an independent, pro GT driver would try rF2 and give feedback.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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  3. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    Shall we close this thread now. I mean We could go on for ages.

    Armchair experts argueing over the perfect sim
     
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  4. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    That's what official forums are for:)
     
  5. felirrari

    felirrari Registered

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    To me the main problem is that rF2 doesn't have an online system. Everyone is going to iRacing not because it's the best sim, but because it has the best system. S397 should focus on it.
     
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  6. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    Why? There are some very valid points, concerns and opinions being made mostly in good faith, thankfully without too much hostility (there is a bit as per usual).

    S397 will do best to listen, even if the minority are on the forums or discord (where the feelings are mutual, as long as it remains mostly respectable then let people have their voice.

    (At least people are speaking up here and not making snidey remarks on the Reiza forum eh MSportDan ;) )
     
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  7. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    Snidy me nah.

    Well the wait for a ui was a joke. Nothing snidey about that at all and reiza can do all that in the same time. Whilst maintaining two titles almost..
     
  8. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    I realize it's sound like it's contradictory, but I still think overall rf2 tires are most accurate, and I get best road feel etc. But I have some concerns, that modern slicks grip loss behavior might be a little bit off. I wouldn't be surprised if it should behave somewhere between ACC and rF2, but that's just speculation, I have no proof.
     
  9. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    These comparisons with Reiza is always cringy... let's give them the correct credit for the great content they make instead of treating them as the masters of simracing development when they arent really developing anything compared to the actual devs like Kunos, S397, iR, SMS, LFS.
    I wouldnt be surprised if S397 is once again doing stuff there like happened to AMS... but I hope they aren't, they already spent too much time on other stuff when they should be fixing rf2 instead
     
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  10. GoldenBear

    GoldenBear Registered

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    The word prioritise comes to mind. S397 seems to have time to pump out new content, but not to fix bugs? Fixing the FCY, AI, replays, GTE and LMP2, freezes in on and offline play, flashing and or half black UI screens, lost connections during session changes, realroad looking like broken stripes along the road, broken AIW on the new Circuit DuAzure, broken skins on the new DLC BMW, broken server listings in Steam no longer showing who is is in the servers (server not responding)..............

    If you owned a company in this state would you be more concerned about fixing your company, or releasing new products to the public? The tired old "the company needs money in order to fix things" is growing beyond old. DLC'S, many of them, have been released so when should we expect some of that money to go towards fixing code issues?

    Feel free S397 to finally give us some answers please.
     
  11. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

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    Not in Acc. It has a magic number tyre modell. Pressure x= grip y. You loose grip below 28psi and above too. Simple and wrong in terms of realism. 28 psi is the recommendation of Pirelli for the tyres that's true but for avoiding damages and not to gain the grip level. A guy of the a Blanc Pain racing team offered that in Kunos forum but they don't listen to him. He said that they allways try to reduce the pressure as much as possible without getting damages
     
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  12. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    Not exactly ;) 27.5 is more of the right stuff, also it can pay off, to run slightly underinflated in some situations, but these are 0.x numbers, we're talking about, just small adaptions to weather and track. You don't lose much grip, by underinflating tyres in ACC...but you put more energy in them and they aren't performing correctly in temps and contact patch, also they can lose pressure under high load or get punctured easy...and this is exactly, what they would do in real life.^^
    Breaking in a tyre in ACC is pretty important.

    Also it is in rF2, btw., you can end up ruining it with blistering(edit: it seems, it's not blistering but all heat degradation) and degradation, when heated up too fast. It's a shame, that environmental temperatures have no effect, it would spice things up sooo much.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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  13. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    Err s397 took the engine off isi as well they are just as much content creators and modders..
     
  14. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    Not really, the development they made is not something "shallow" as in AMS and now AMS2, heck the Madness engine used in AMS2 was even ahead of PC2 version already
    They had to and still will need to make big changes to this sim (you are reading patch notes, RM and checked the dev video, right?), that's why they even kept part of ISI staff and they were hired to make outside work too like the TGT game, which runs on console and with a different graphics engine ;)
    If Reiza made a new sim based on AMS they'd have a challenge just as big (and the same issues every other dev had), but as Renato himself said in the first interview about AMS2 to a brazilian site they are not a game developer so picking a "ready to go" platform was the best choice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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  15. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I'm seeing mentions of blistering, rF2 doesn't do blistering. It does heat related rubber degradation (and abrasion, of course) but it doesn't do a blistered surface.
     
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  16. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    100% sure?
     
  17. Ronnie

    Ronnie Registered

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    Yup
     
  18. CrimsonEminence

    CrimsonEminence Registered

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    Okay, than i have confused it totally with the heat degradation at all, by bad :D

    (I dunning kruger'd this hard, i was ABSOLUTELY sure about that :D )
     
  19. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    They should make a list of everything rf2 simulates, there is a lot of guess going on because the answers are never clear, just random posts by devs here and there and those need to be remembered by the users themselves
     
  20. Ronnie

    Ronnie Registered

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    What's funny that blistering and graining shouldn't be difficult to code (from logic point of view). It's just a matter of surface temps. You get consistently high temps from sliding/excessive abrasion and due to for example lack of straights, wrong cambers, high track and ambient temps tires won't cool down so your grip levels get low due to surface of rubber developing cracks in it from rubber "exploding" from the inside and you get far less stability and grip. Graining the same way, your surface and inner layers can't get hot enough which doesn't allow proper chemical restructuring to occur within the rubber and because of that it rubber "particles" gets rolled into tiny rubber boogers that roll off the surface essentially reducing not only size of surface but also the rest of the not rolled up rubber doesn't provide enough support so you're sliding like mofo.

    Tires in rF2 are in some ways sublime. From tech side. What often lets down is how they are utilized. Code behind tires is a masterpiece on many fronts but for it to work tire has to be built with extreme care and has to have chassis that is flaw/bug free. You can have best possible tire on a car but if chassis/aero is screwed then no amount of greatness in them will save the car from being absolute shiet. This is a trade off that rF2 has. It can be truly amazing when you put enough time, care and science behind a project like car with lots of data, know-how and fine tuning. It is a sim that can't be rushed when making a car because if you rush your making process in others sims you risk making a average car instead of good or very good car, while in rF2 if you rush it you end up with absolute dog excrement of a car. Get one thing wrong like chassis flex/ultra flex and whole car will feel off, even tires won't behave correctly.

    If we go back to ISI days we had far less cars, single car sometimes had half a year+ waiting period. We all hated that but we all understood why. Michael Borda was in charge of that process and he wasn't rushed, there was no paid DLC with "hardcoded" deadline release date. No 23821 cars in a pack that need to be tweaked to match BoP by borking some numbers. It showed because if we really dig into some of the ISI content it wasn't perfect but I can hardly remember any car being outright broken. They were good at worst case scenario and superb at best case scenario. ISI also had Terrence who has been the backbone of ISI physics engine and it's features. Studio 397 doesn't have anyone near Terrence's caliber and probably never will.

    Right now to my knowledge Michael Borda car making was reduced to minimum to let him focus on tires which is a hard task for someone who has been building them, not coding them. With Marek Leśniak whose experience is questionable and it showed so many times over and over again. Especially when there are many cars involved together and a bit less data to go by aaaaaaaand a tight schedule due to it being paid DLC.

    397 desperately wanted and needed to fill the gaps that ISI left for them with their lack of modern, popular content which 397 felt it has to deliver as fast as possible. Which is true that ISI's content was scarce in number and it's modern appeal. However in their pursue to close the gap to other sims with content (especially cars) something had to give. Usually it's quality and quality control/assurance.

    I both feel for 397 and don't because what's happening now and will only increase with time, is entirely on them and their bad plan and what's worse, bad execution of a bad plan. I can't say if we are witnessing the inevitable downfall of S397 or whether they can still turn it around with some bold changes to team structure, responsibilities, execution, planing and perhaps even employees. I just hope that rF2 won't die but if it has to die to be reborn again from ashes then let it happen.
     

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