Honesty speaking rF2 seems a lost cause

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by williang83, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. williang83

    williang83 Registered

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    For those who are not aware, the last 5 years in flight sim has been the years of XP11. A game that sells itself as one of the best FM in the market, and made that their selling point and they pretty much ignored everything else for 3 years. Two years ago they decided to improve the UI, which took about one year. This year they have been working in making a port to Vulkan, but gameplay wise in 5 years they have done a heck and many aspect of the game was simply lacking. They had the chance to provide a better overall product but they just missed the boat and now they are about to be run over by the returned king, MSFS20, that has simply raised the bar by miles, even in overall FM which was XP best selling point, casting very dark shadow on a product so shallow like XP11.

    Leaving "the return of the king" aside, no pun intended, rf2 reminds me a lot XP11. Their selling point is physics but everything else is simply lacking up to the point to make it the worse overall package in the market IMO. Specially when you consider that some features are not even present, ex. championship or a proper and simply AI selection.

    It is simply unacceptable that a product so old which should be pretty mature, instead in 10 races at least 4 suffer of a bug that brakes the experience. This week for the second time in a row i've received a drive through penalty that i could not clear off (the first in official lemans and the other in modded daytona). There is always something stupid braking the experience.

    What about the future? They took 3 years just to develop a stupid UI with barely no parallel development on anything else. Now that the UI has been released, a month later we still have to live with the stupid "checking servers" whenever you go back to the main menu. Not even a damn hotfix for something that IT IS so simple to fix. The development has been basically focused in UI for 3 f*****g years where tons of bugs, unfinished features and simply missing features has simply lived for 3 years. Rather than promises there is little to be excited about rF2 development since their development pace is really really slow. After the DX11 i see no major release which should be more frequent for something so lacking as rF2.

    I don't want to be hash but i simply wish that the same happens in driving sims, a new king arise in order to cast shadow to most of these developers of today.
     
  2. GoldenBear

    GoldenBear Registered

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    The saddest part of this whole deal is that S397 seem to think there are no bugs whenever someone reports them. (One gets the usual question of "did you use S397 tracks and cars?") Many of the bugs happen regardless if all S397 content is used or not. The quality has taken a dive bomb as of late. Not only did they release the Monaco track with an AIW made from 2012 ISI content that does not work or make sense to use it, even the latest skins for the new DLC BMW are flawed.

    Basically this new and terrible UI which I refuse to use has been and is going to be the death of this game because S397 will continue to ignore it's player base and waste more time on the UI while the rest of the game keeps tanking more all the time.

    Let's see if I can recall some of the bugs that have showed up since the new UI work has started.

    (1) The AI is beyond broken at this point. They dive bomb into the turns and take out your front end when you are already on the inside line. They will ram you off full tilt if you are slower than them and never try to avoid others anymore. They also crash far more on any tracks including S397 ones while using S397 cars. The fast and sporadic pumping of the gas and brakes that was never an issue in the past now is. That is just a couple of the big problems with the AI now.

    (2) Racing online or offline now there are micro freezes and even the odd 1-2 second freezes. Over the last few weeks a new bug entered the fray where changing sessions in a race weekend now comes with at times huge delays up to 25 seconds to change modes.

    (3) Since the new UI was released, the old one has been affected. I am getting all sorts of weird bugs including half black screens during session changes.

    (4) The replays are almost completely borked now. If one chooses to watch a replay from the replay tab many times the replays will only play in slow motion. If one does not choose the track in single player mode first to be the same as the replay file you will end up loading the wrong track and will see a replay of all cars driving in the sky.

    These are just four bugs of a much much larger list all of which have shown up while S397 tries to do coding for the new UI using a long division approach of trial and error.

    Yes I agree that this game is no longer a viable choice for a great sim where key features like proper info on wheels is missing, no damage model for the transmission, no clutch model, a highly unstable online experience, and S397's mentality going around in memes that rF2 has no bugs. Meanwhile some things they broke with their, cough, code updates have been around between 1-2 years now.

    I used to be a huge supporter of this game but can no longer be that when the writing and actions of S397 is so clearly painted on a wall for all to see.

    I hopefully will see many of you come AMS2 released soon!
     
  3. Sebastien Sestacq

    Sebastien Sestacq Registered

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    AMS 2 no thanks!
     
  4. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Sorry to be so harsh here, but I have been reading that nonesense for as long as I can remember. There have been people hyping the heck out of products, that weren't even on the market, claiming that those new products will blow everything out of the water. When PC1 and later PC2 came along, everyone said that it feels like rF2 and that it will be the master class racing sim. When ACC appeared, everyone said that you won't need any other sim to run GT3 races. Should I mention GTR3? Next up is AMS2 and I hear alot of people saying the same nonesense allready. Now here are some facts for you: it's funny but the the same old products are still coexistent on this market with pretty stable player bases. This includes AC, rF2, RR, iRacing and lot's of other products. AC took the role that rF1 had for along time, but it has quite some limitations of what you can do compared to rF1. In alot of areas this genre has moved to closed systems with less flexible systems, while AC and rF2 are the last two open platforms. And that's propably the most important reason why people still play those games and AMS2 won't change that.

    Next to the fact that I played basicly all of the sims, I can tell you for sure that each of the products has it's own pros and cons. Why aren't you playing those other great products allready and take a break from rF2? What in gods name makes you believe that AMS2 will be any better in that sense? I used madness engine games long enough to know, that the underlying AI is terrible, that the sound sucks and that there are tons of other little bugs and problems that can completely break your experience. Physics and FFB were the prime problem of Madness engine games. If and when Reiza manages to fix those issues needs to be seen. Little example: in PC2 you get penalties when you aren't following the guy infront of you close enough for a certain amount of time during the warm up lap, wich can be pretty frustrating with the very erratic and crappy AI. So far Reiza has shared very little when it comes to safety car stuff and FCY, let alone driving against AI, so I won't hold my breath. And similar issues are there in any sim, so that some AI's clipping the wall at Rascasse is actually a minor issue.

    I don't want to dissapoint you, but the manpower and budget is simply not enough in this niche genre to realize what people are looking for: a fully polished open platform like rF2 with lot's of versatile lisenced AAA content, perfect sound, graphics and outstanding physics and FFB.
     
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  5. MarcG

    MarcG Member

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    Barely no parallel development? Do you recall the move to DX11 (which was no small feat on its own), VR support, optimisation enhancements, enhanced & updated Shaders, led position boards etc etc

    You're being overly harsh with that particular comment.
     
  6. Stefan_L_01

    Stefan_L_01 Registered

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    Yaeh, but this is mostly graphics only. In terms of game stabillity, gaming bugs and other not much was achieved. Driver change was improved but there are way more issues in multiplayer that must be cared about. And yes, freezes came back since some time, also offline
     
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  7. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    While the "sim x or y will come and kill rf2" talk has been repeated with no success in last years at some point this will actually happen, I hightly doubt it'll be AMS2 tho but an AC2 open to mods with more modding tools and with the physics development made in ACC probably would do it.
    S397 should have heard some of us that said to abandon this sim and make a new one, updating everything without worrying about previous content would be way faster, plus hype sells, while the studio would be on the red for this time I'd be very surprised if you wouldnt at least break even. Of course it's easy for me (and any of us) to speak since it's not my money on the line, but if I was doing it I'd like to reduce risks and rF2 in 2016 was more and more clear to be a risky mission to try to turn around.
    But that's just my uneducated 2 cents. Wonder if any consulting company was hired when they made this deal and what they said
    Btw yes, ACC is getting to a point where no other sim is needed for GT3. The only thing that saves rf2 for those cars is modding that allow you to have more tracks. But really if for any reason they get GT America, Asia (both are SRO) and some GT4 championships there will be tons of extra tracks there
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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  8. RedBarchetta

    RedBarchetta Registered

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    AMS 2 will not be your savior, you will come crawling back to rF2 seeking forgiveness
     
  9. Bjørn

    Bjørn Registered

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    Whatever.
    Play whatever you want. I'll stay right here. Mod what I know, learn what I don't know yet - hopefully.
    The day that Marcel & The Gang shuts down modding. That day I'll be worried. Not a single second before.
     
  10. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I wouldn't be so sure if there wasn't anything equally big, or even bigger worked on in parallel with UI, competition system, billions of bugs fixing, and things that MarcG mentioned. I am also not sure if there weren't other, rF2 unrelated things being worked in the parallel. Actually... I am also not sure about anything related to rF2 anymore. Don't expect perfection anymore, not expecting much anymore, but also don't expect anything tragic. In short - don't expect anything at all anymore. Wishing lots of nice things, but wishes in simracing is starting to make us all sick.

    However... it is not the simulations that I am upset the most about in the first place. It is the simracers. Since I became active member of simracing community, I have witnessed the communities becoming worse...and worse...... and worse.... while at the same time becoming larger. Feels like all the new people just spoils everything and the older, wiser members are just quietly leaving. I mean just look at simracing reddit... or any place actually.. Simracing is being slowly consumed by corporations and business principles. People are even stopping to object actual software as a simulator, now the simulator is A RIG. Some ripped mod average package is celebrated more than actual proper simulation software. Topics about vehicles and physics are turn-offs for most, most doesn't understand anything about mechanics involved with a car, and that is not the worst thing, the worst thing is that they don't even care.

    And this is the soil that rF2 has to survive. Kinda wish, as sick as I am of wishing, that it is all being just prepared by devs that takes a long time, and the fruits will start popping out in much faster rate, and lots of creative and intelligent people will gravitate to rF2 for greatest simracing time. It probably will not, so it would be a pleasant surprise if it did.

    I am sceptical about "the saviour new simulation title". I think too many titles could just make it worse for whole system of titles, unless it would bring proportionally more players into simracing, and I mean simracing, not some simcade fakes. I would consider AMS2 as the doors closing one. Till some other title passes away and makes room for something new. But I am a bit sceptical about AMS2 for running slightlymadstudios stuff...

    @GoldenBear I also have a thing or a few to report regarding how stuff works in rF2, but I have realized that there is no hope to get anything moved till S397 sorts out their other stuff that is now hanging for years.... There is just absolutely no hope at all.
     
  11. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    How many times have we heard "X will kill rf2" only for it to not happen?

    AMS2 will be the same.

    Laughs in RaceRoom...
     
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  12. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    The ui was a wrong move. Rf2 will suffer for it. If things moved faster it could of worked for them but it doesn't for whatever reason.

    Simply put ppl will move on and there's better solutions out now in 2020. Back when Rf2 released there probably wasn't but hell there is now for sure. Just some with the rose tinted glasses will tell u different

    Think the phrase is ship has sailed for Rf2 I'm Afraid, I'm really not sure they can turn this around.
     
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  13. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    Have used rF off & on for about 12 years and have a good bit of prior motorsports experience. Tried several other sims, but when it comes to the fidelity of the driving experience rFactor2 leads the pack by a strong margin IMO.

    Development takes revenue and its not like S397 is selling thousands of new "subscriptions" everyday. I haven't tried the Beta UI yet simply because I haven't seen any sort of bulletin that specifically describes new features or shows GUI's etc., other than the snippets in the Roadmaps. Usually thats the first step to create code and the key document to use for quality such as test and bug reporting.

    rF2 has drifted far from the intuitive UI it once had in rF1. I've seen this development pattern before in previous products I've developed (mostly embedded processor controlled products) and its not a good sign of things to come. I hope that S397 can put a little more emphasis in coordinating their development plans....
     
  14. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

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    I love rF2.

    But S397 invests too little on what IMO must be considered as essential :

    - Physics engine and other elements related to the driving realism (driving on wet road ....).
    - Graphic performance/optimization (to relate to qualitative graphics).
    - The 3rd essential element is their strong point (their big strength) : the content (mainly car, but also laser scanned tracks) : in particular in terms of physics but also sound and graphics.

    Something that I would like them to do quickly and well, but it is not a priority indeed, it is a very significant debugging/improvement of the AI, because I only drive offline.

    Really it's the car content, which makes incredible use of the great rF2 physics engine, which keeps me going.

    But S397 will have to invest in realism/physics, as soon as possible.

    Personally I am starting to lose patience on this subject.
     
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  15. The Iron Wolf

    The Iron Wolf Member

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    Lots of good points on this thread, and I do share the frustration (and love for) rF2. Last week I was trying to simulate 24hrs of LeMans, but could not because SC phase does not terminate correctly. SC phase is broken with FE Monaco as well, formation lap is broken with Kartsim tracks. At times it is difficult to swallow this is happening with official content, yet it works nicely with some community tracks.

    What I'd like to point out is that development takes time. I've been in Raceroom since early days, and in 5 years it went from hopeless to enjoyable, but it was "just" 3 things changed - flags added, damage improved, FFB improved - in 5 years. Someone might say "S3 is a small team", but while I do not follow iRacing development closely, it appears that things are taking years and years over there as well, and it is a game with a much larger userbase. AC/ACC evolve gradually as well.

    Sometimes, it is nice to take a break from a game, you never know what you find when you come back, it just might be a positive surprise :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
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  16. ThomasJohansen

    ThomasJohansen Registered

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    Reasonly comming from Pcars 1 and 2. Rf2 is so much more stable, better AI, better FFB and physics is in a league above anything else.
    Even the new beta UI is minimum as good as pcars.

    Only multiplayer serverbrowsing and hosting a race have some problems.
     
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  17. FAlonso

    FAlonso Registered

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    rF2 died a long time ago for me, the game went on sale in an unfortunate state rushed by the imminent exit of a simulator called AC. The whole game cost me about € 100 to play an online game that offers nothing. The pace of development has been extremely slow, in the first trailers of rF2 and there were raindrops, this did not come until after many years. Regarding the simulation, people who talk about their superiority to others never understood, there are aspects that frustrate me, I do not understand how the temperature of the track does not affect the tire, reduces without clutch, a gearbox is not simulated , puddles do not affect and a long etc. The graphic section has been the only advance that the game has had in these years and continues to be aged. Charging times are unbearable. The sounds are not immersive, the online is not very functional, I honestly do not expect any progress in rF2, to improve rF2 you will have to start from 0, surely I hope that an rF3 will return to excite us in the near future.
     
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  18. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Now seriously: wich "better solutions" are there that offer what rF2 offers? And I am not just talking content but flexibility, rule support, weather and day+ night transitions, the whole sandbox experience and all those little details. The only sims that get somewhat close are rF1 and AMS. AC is a big conent sandbox but has some very annoying other limitation. Everything else on this market are either games that have built in limitations like PC1/2 + ACC or that are closed services like iRacing and RR. If you are - like me - looking for the ArmA III of race sims, then there is simply no way around rF2. Ever tried setting up a time scaled 24h of Daytona race with multy class fields, weather and day and night transitions? Doesn't get any easier than in rF2. People can talk as much as they want, I often head out to other sims to take a break from rF2, but come back because I run quite fast into limitations that don't annoy me in rF2. No question, rF2 has it's own issues, not just a few of them and some very annoying ones, but it all comes down to what you are looking for.
     
  19. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    Unfortunately this, there are no other options.
    The point is: for how long? There wanst an option to rF back then, not even rF2 was, then AC appeared even with its limitations (that are limitations to us, not to other ppl) when something else with less limitations will appear? :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  20. Stefan_L_01

    Stefan_L_01 Registered

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    Its not a matter what is offered, its a question what is working reliable.
    Get a freeze in the wrong moment and your 24h online race is done...
     

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