half FFB rate?

Discussion in 'Technical & Support' started by Twowi, Dec 7, 2018.

  1. Twowi

    Twowi Registered

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    Hi, fairly new to the game and I can't seem to find an option like AMS's 180hz or AC's skip FFB steps. It gives me a significant boost in those games, but it seems to be missing. Am i blind or does that simply not exist, and If so, why?
     
  2. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I'm not aware of anything like that. There is an option in ffb controls area to increase the initial % of ffb, dependant upon the car you are driving. (I think I'm explaining that poorly) The last thing an rF2 ffb routine would do is SKIP steps...especially since there really aren't any steps. You feel the tires/car interacting with the road surface, not the software. Add your equipment in questions like yours to allow other users with similar hardware to possibly chip in with what works for them. Best of luck and welcome aboard.
     
  3. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    Rf2 did have that setting on controller.json before, but they got rid of it. I don't know why.
    What kind of boost you mean? ffb improvement of something else?
    I used it with my osw and found it very beneficial for my ffb. Trying to get the ffb as good as it was back then i have spent about 2k€ now.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  4. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    @Twowi i m not sure but i think RF2 ffb works at 330hz by default
     
  5. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    rF2 outputs FFB at 400Hz. This FFB is built on maths of up to 2400Hz at the tyres, so apart from wheels that can't handle the full output rate I don't think there's anything to be gained by reducing the rate. AMS is built on rF1 as far as I know, I think they increased the physics rate from what it was originally (360 to 720 perhaps, internally) but FFB might still be a little 'raw' when output at 360Hz.

    If your wheel is too noisy (physically noisy, or there's too much FFB 'noise') try FFB smoothing in the game.

    *For comparison, rFactor 1 physics was 360Hz internally, but the FFB was limited to 90Hz. That perhaps gives some indication of how fast ISI felt it should be, based on how the physics engine worked.
     
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  6. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    yeah 400
    ty Lazza
     
  7. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    Lazza. In my case the ffb update rate worked a bit like a low pass filter. There is some not so nice feeling stuff in the ffb with some cars in the higher frequencies. A bit like scraping fingernails to a chalkboard type stuff. Not really that bad but still not too pleasant. With direct drive wheel there is no belts or anything to dampen these frequencies. By lowering the ffb update rate i was able to cut out these frequencies without using filter (and without dampening the good stuff on lower frequencies) for that.

    Sorry didn't meant to hijack the thread for my problems. Twowi's thing might have nothing to do with this.
     
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  8. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    @Korva7
    you didnt hijack anything mate
    its just the feeling that something missing from my house.......(DD) !!!!!!!
    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
     
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  9. Twowi

    Twowi Registered

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    Sorry, I mean FPS increase. In AMS i go from 70 to 140+.

    200x within a second is already extreme enough, and that it requires smoothing (i need close to 10) just supports that point. The removal seems pointless, even if it only applies to a handful of people (i assume). It's free performance.
     
  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @Twowi I'm pretty sure it never did that in rF2. I'm actually surprised it does that in other games too, that should be indicative of wheel driver problems. What wheel do you have?

    If you are having issues with rF2 you could open your controller.JSON and change "Use Thread" to :true,

    Other than that there's really nothing to be gained. My T500 I have 0 smoothing, I used smoothing on my G27 but that was because of noise - it felt better with 0.

    @Korva7 Yeah, I forgot about some people preferring the lower rates, there were a couple complaining as soon as the option got removed. Low smoothing values don't help there I guess, since the wheel still gets updated at full speed?
     
  11. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    @Lazza Yes, the smoothing (or driver filter) don't seem to lower the ffb update rate. It is possible to remove the nasty feelings with high smoothing (or filter) values, but then i lose lots of the lower frequency vibrations also, making ffb feel more numb.
    Now with Simucube i can use "peaking and notch filter" to quiet down the higher frequencys, which pretty much removes the problem. Peaking and notch filter.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
  12. Twowi

    Twowi Registered

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    Significant FPS increase is "nothing"?

    If i may ask, what are your credentials that it surprises you actual developers implement it
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  13. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @Twowi As I said, in rF2 there were no such gains. We had that option, I tried it myself back in the early days of rF2, I don't recall any FPS gains and I don't recall anyone reporting any, except for those people who had wheels that couldn't handle 400Hz.

    So, what wheel do you have?
     
  14. Twowi

    Twowi Registered

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    So there are benefits, but it's been scraped because high FFB numbers on the spec sheets is what's matters?

    Nice. Thanks.
     
  15. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    No answers, just attitude. You're trolling.
     
  16. Twowi

    Twowi Registered

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    That's funny. You're the one with the attitude that there is nothing to be gained (while admitting there is), just because you haven't seen it. And now you bitch about no answers when i answered Korva's question. All the while you don't answer my question.

    Aside from that, there is nothing else to discuss, especially since you seem to be the only authority on that matter, so my question is answered which means the topic is solved.
     
  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I've asked you twice what wheel you have, in case somehow it's affecting your FPS in other games with higher FFB rates selected.

    As for your benefits, let's list them:

    1. A smoother, less noisy feel for owners of higher-end belt driven wheels and DD wheels, though it's not enough of an issue to bother most people because there are a lot of high-end wheel owners playing rF2 who are perfectly happy with the FFB (perhaps they'd prefer a lower rate if they tried it, but this could also be hardware and setting specific - interesting topic, but I don't think it's your angle).

    2. Fixing game slowdowns on older wheels. This was the reason the option was added to rF2 originally, because old wheels (like the MS sidewinder) couldn't keep up with 400Hz updates and its drivers were stalling the game (the game reads your input on every frame, and uses that to calculate physics, outputs FFB, before reading your input on the next frame, updating physics, outputting FFB, etc. Many games just read your input when available, and skip the physics along a bit if things get held up - rF2 doesn't work that way). The devs then took away that option but added a 'separate thread' option so that FFB calls were handled separately and no longer slowed down the game physics code.

    Note this game slowdown isn't FPS; it's the game actually going into slow motion because the physics have fallen behind realtime. As above, the game doesn't just skip ahead when this happens, it keeps calculating every frame of physics despite having fallen behind, and when this happens the game noticeably slows down with timers and everything all moving slower.

    3. FPS improvements? Well, considering FFB is a drain on CPU rather than GPU, I think it's fair to say that my quad-core CPU I ran rF2 on, with a GPU just good enough to put out decent FPS (50-70) at the time, would have showed up any marked improvements by reducing the FFB rate. I also think it would have been well reported here and anyone with negative impacts from no longer having that option would have said something when it was removed. I didn't see anything of that nature, so I either missed it or it didn't happen.

    Now, you can take all that in and say the option was taken away through some desire to spout high FFB numbers at the cost of users actually being able to run the game decently, but I don't think that's a reasonable conclusion.

    Again, your wheel matters here, so if you want to let us know what that is it might help. If you also want to show where other games like AMS and AC have people reporting massive FPS increases by reducing FFB update rates I'd be more than interested, because it seems very unlikely and probably a function of your specific hardware if it really does happen.

    Is that funny?
     
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  18. Twowi

    Twowi Registered

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    Your attitude. No. That you think i'm the one with the attitude and accuse me of trolling when i just came here to ask a simple question, because i do get a lot more frames, is.

    You couldn't help yourself, huh? And of course, it's even liked on this forum. Very nice

    As for the topic, obviously it is my hardware and already know what your response is.. buy different hardware... this is the best simulation, bla bla bla. You can save that for the next person.
     
  19. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @Twowi If your hardware (wheel) is causing slowdowns on other games at full FFB rate, rF2 shouldn't do it if you use the "separate thread" option. I'm sure I saw someone recently with a sidewinder using that option to resolve their issues.

    The thread and posts in it speak for themselves. I'm comfortable with what I've said, my views on at least one of your posts and its content, and I don't care who likes what.
     
  20. Marcel Offermans

    Marcel Offermans Administrator Staff Member

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    Slightly off-topic but in AMS the following changes were made compared to rF1. The physics rate was doubled from 360 to 720 Hz which should in theory make them slightly (by far not twice) more accurate. On top of that the FFB was changed to no longer be directly linked to the frame rate. However, when we tried doing FFB at 720 Hz we soon discovered that a lot of wheel drivers (some DD wheels including) were way too slow when we sent those commands. Therefore we had to settle for a maximum of 360 Hz and the option to go lower than that.

    Back on-topic, rFactor 2 has its physics running at 400 Hz, with tyres doing 2400 Hz. FFB is also at 400 Hz and an option to do it at lower frequencies did exist years ago but was removed in favor of a much better solution which is the "Use Thread" option in the controller.json which you can set to "true" for any multi-core CPU. This will cause the simulation to off-load the sending of FFB commands to a different thread (CPU core) effectively removing all the slowdown these commands would cause to the physics. So I certainly recommend that setting if you have a modern CPU as it will speed up the physics calculations.
     
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