Formula Vee

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Adrianstealth, Jun 14, 2021.

  1. likes_simracing

    likes_simracing Registered

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    Counter-point: drive the FVee with jerky and exaggerated steering. :)



    Enjoyable car, but not a pleasant weapon to engage in tight battles vs opponents that do sudden line changes (like late-blocking AIs and maybe IRL humans). Applying a sudden light brake or lift to avoid a collision while on a corner, or tightening or opening steering lock to avoid an errant opponent is likely to lead into a terminal spin. Catching the instability is fun also, but infuriating most times when caused by a reaction to a late-block.
     
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  2. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    That actually looks like some pretty decent and smooth driving to me! The only jerky motion is when you quickly scrub the front tires mid corner, but at that moment everything is so well balanced and the front tires are at their peak grip so it doesn't really upset the car.

    Out of interest why do you drive in that way? Is it to just ever so slightly adjust the speed of the car mid corner without having to come off throttle and thus become unstable? Or is it kind of a quick check to make sure you're at the limit of the front end before applying the gas? Or just for shits and giggles?
     
  3. likes_simracing

    likes_simracing Registered

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    It is actually so the car suddenly rotates mid-corner when the front bites, so induced entry understeer that becomes (controlled) snap oversteer. The controlled part meaning I can generally dictate when it starts, and by how much. This gives me a stable car on exit since I usually over-rotate vs the cars I am chasing, which means I can go to full throttle earlier or at least have less scrub for the same throttle. I usually get left behind while rotating, but I gain back that time on exit.

    I am also doing this for shits and giggles and practice on some corners. For example, I don't really need a lot of rotation on the right-turn Turn 3, and lose time to the AIs on the ensuing 'straight' because of my waiting for a bigger rotation, but that's another 2-3 tenths I can shave if I needed it.
     
  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Some nice driving here in new monza layout, although not many turns, but still good display. I drive it in similar way.

    This is a great advice. Not being enthusiastic about something will never work out too good, you can't be great at something without getting fully immersed in it. To feel the cars, get fully in connection with them you must be focused almost all of your mind to it. If your thoughts are somewhere else, or as you say, being impatient and spoiled frame of mind - car will never work, especially if it is little bit more demanding of focus and skill. I can't imagine anyone winning races by thinking how they wish they would have been doing something else, or how they hate the car, unless against low level opponents.

    Fun story. One time when I was working on the car it felt really wrong, I also was in bad mood and wasn't exactly sure if I even wanted to play rF2 at the time. I did some tweaks to the physics of a car, but made a mistake and didn't save the tweaks. Next day, in good mood and thinking that I am driving "fixed" physics I loved the car, it felt much different, I felt the connection and I just could drive it as well and as aggressively as I was expecting. I was happy that my "fixes" worked, just to find out later that I actually drove exactly the same physics as the day before. Also exactly same everything. Just my mood and enthusiasm was different.

    In my country there is a saying "Morning is smarter than evening." I guess it would especially count for those evenings that follows hard and difficult days which leads to exhaustion, fatigue, bad mood, poor focus, worse reactions, lots of random thoughts and confusion. And these things happen so commonly for adults, who actually has to care about stuff. How can you expect to excel at any challenging activity in such state ? It should be expected that limits of performance at such state will drop. And when do people race mostly ? In the evening.

    This being said, I wish everyone to be happy good health, have everything in order and stable in your lives, and also be real.
     
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  5. David O'Reilly

    David O'Reilly Registered

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    I'll give it a go Obiwan!
     
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  6. atomed

    atomed Registered

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    Hey, don´t fool us, maybe the steering wasn´t but the overall driving was smooth as eggs :p
     
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  7. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    To be honest, at first I thought it is driven with keyboard and with assists ON, till I looked more closely. It is surprising that it was possible to put such abrupt steering into understeer and so much of it. It was also a bit strange that tires didn't make any noise with that much understeer. It makes sense though, with understeer you can't have oversteer, unless front tires bites in, grips and causes snap oversteer, which would be instant spin with this car. To me it looks like an exploit, sure there is like a second in which you can safely understeer without upsetting the car, however it is also believable. In AC with W125 I used to use this technique quite a bit, also with cars from fifties with weak brakes and rather progressively sliding tires, you could use some understeer at entry to help scrubbing of speed, it is like extra brakes. In this Fvee "Alonso style" driving, I can't notice much of scrubbing to be happening - there is no sound, nor noticeable speed loss. It is just a bit strange.
     
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  8. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Maybe tire noise is low or turned off because it can get a bit annoying and even distracting at times. I like it very low or off most of the time. I feel like I drive better.

    Also, once the car has a certain amount of momentum and/or power, perhaps scrubbing the fronts would not slow it down too much? I mean, if more steering angle at the front always slowed the car down, then more steering angle would always equal more turn in, seeing as the car must tighten the line as it slows down (I think). And that obviously isn't the case, usually, the car dosn't turn better with more steering angle, it turns at the same radius or worse. Anyway, don't want to get into another one of those physics talks here because this stuff is always way more complex and it just goes down a rabbit hole! IMO some cars slow down with front scrubbing (low power to weight high relative grip), some cars don't. Because the FVee is a pretty light machine and has the weight at the back, plus low grip tire, maybe it's not too far off.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
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  9. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    This thread inspired me to knock out a quick video, seeing as I already wanted to do an overview of my sim driving tips, and this thread reminded me how good the Formula Vee is at learning and practising car control!

    Hopefully some smooth driving here though a couple of small mistakes ;)

     
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  10. likes_simracing

    likes_simracing Registered

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    To add to the above entries, I am not using the sharp steering to reduce speed. The car would, of course, just from the physics of it, but slowing down is not my concern at turn-in. I am really after the snap oversteer that comes after the understeer. It is not obvious sometimes but it is always there, and I can feel it on the steering. The trick is getting the snap oversteer to turn the car to the direction needed, but not gain angular momentum, because then it is very hard to control and would lose time to recover. The other hard part is inducing the understeer. On these types of nervous cars, it can whip the car around if not done correctly. When this happens, you just have to be ready to stop the quick steering movement, and be ready to ride the inside curb.

    I use this on almost all cars these days, in various sims (my youtube is basically doing this all the time :) ). I like using this on tail-heavy cars, like the FVee and the Porsche GT3 Cup. Here's an old vid of the Porsche Cup on a green Oulton Park NC (the steering here is set to 270 deg so those small steering movements are actually quite extreme; my FVee video above is at 330 deg).

     
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  11. atomed

    atomed Registered

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    When I came to rf2 from iRacing I was astounded by the difficulty, deepness and sheer joy the rF2 Skippy was able to give me. I didn't think there would be a car I could love as much as that one but the FVee did it. It's a piece of art, so sensitive and unstable, one of my three favs in the sim.
     
  12. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Yes when you learn how to drive a challenging car it’s rewarding. But for me question is aren’t these two cars too difficult vs RL? Never drove it, but I read that iRacing skippy is quite realistic.
     
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  13. atomed

    atomed Registered

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    I loved iracing's Skippy, but there was a great video, sadly in Spanish, where they compared both versions. Hope there's subtitles but overall conclusion is that iracing version was not realistic.

    Sorry to go off topic but I'd say both cars are similar.
     
  14. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Maybe updated tires in iRacing Skippy made it better. This video was made before the updates.
    Is F Vee also that difficult in iRacing?
     
  15. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    When you consider that they used to call Porsche 911's widow makers, I don't think it's a stretch to say that IRL cars that are light with the engine at the rear, skinny tires and rudumentarly suspension are pretty difficult to pilot, UNLESS you understand what the car is doing and have experience.

    The rear engined layout brings the centre of mass of the car closer to the rear, making the yaw axis pivot point of the car close or on the rear axle. This not only makes the axle (and thus entire car) more eager to rotate, it puts the front of the car during yawing on the outer diameter of a circle, rather than at the fulcrum. This gives the front end a more dramatic lateral motion, as if it were the business end of a tank turret.

    At least that's how I visualize it. My point is, yes it is harder to drive relative to other cars, but it's not THAT hard when you know how the car moves and have experience. If your mental visualization of how the car moves matches how it actually moves, then it not only becomes easier to drive, but an outright weapon of speed.
     
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  16. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    Skippy was made long ago by ISI and I believe physics weren't touched by S397 since. It's been very long time since I drove rf2 F. Vee or Skippy, but I remember F. Vee in AMS1 was significantly easier to drive. Also AC Skippy mod was way easier to drive ( too easy for my taste). I think on regional tires Skippy was especially challenging. I believe IRL you feel much more through butt and in sim you only have FFB so it's much more difficult to feel the limit.
     
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  17. atomed

    atomed Registered

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    Yes, regional are treaded tires and national semislicks. I´d also like to know iRacing fvee opinion, I´ve only seen GPlaps´ stating it is fun but has lots of work to be done. Last time I tried that sim it felt like my car was a 2d object moving forward o_O
     
  18. Love Guitars n Cars

    Love Guitars n Cars Registered

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    I find the iracing Vee to be very easy to drive compared to rF2 Vee. I prefer the AMS1 Vee as it seems to sit somewhere in the middle. Just my opinion though. I'm not fast. I was doing consistent 72 second lap times at Oulton Fosters with the iRacing Vee so I'm not fast at all so take it for what it's worth.
     
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  19. turtleCZ

    turtleCZ Registered

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    I think the car in rF2 is perfect and it's mostly because of superb physics. Other games are just too simple to model it properly.
     
  20. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    As always, more difficult doesn’t mean more realistic. Other major sims are advanced enough to model the car realistically. Except tire model, rF2 physics are not superior. But for instance you can even have AMS1 empirical tire model with curves dialed so close to RL that it’s much better than tires based on physical model.
    I have no idea if that’s the case for F. Vee.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021

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