Hi all, some time ago i made a post to virtualr regarding ffb of rfactor2 and Tim answered me there to come here to the forum and post my question-idea... So here it is, in slow corners ffb lows its "power" to a result that i couldnt feel the rear tyres so i couldnt know how much grip i had to push the car.I see many that like the ffb as it is,but i dont.The same happens to game stock car and in race department forum i asked Niels about the same.Something tells me that this happens cause of the engine of ISI.I told Niels if it is possible to put a multiplier to FFB so in slow corners the ffb multiplyer has the max value(lets say 10)(so i can feel more the rear tyres that i want) and as speed goes up the multiplyer goes towards to 1.. Anyway,my question is that do the devs have this in mind,i mean i dont feel in slow corners and i want to know if devs know that and working to make it better. I couldnt push any car in the exits of the corner cause the only feedback was from my screen(i mean if the car was going left/right i understood that i was spinning) and this is frustrating.Only the old formulas for some reason gave ffb in slow corners and the skippy and i cant understand why is this happening. I want a clear answer about this from devs if they will fix that. I also cant judge much the general ffb cause it has this "rattling" thing and cant understand the "small" effects which maybe are cool and make the hole expirience more enjoyable.(i have seen many posts about this so i guess devs are working on the "rattling" thing). If ffb remains as it is,it will be another sim with no ffb in slow corners(which is very important) as in almost every sim i expirience the same problem.Im a hardcore simracer and i enjoy the limits in a simulator so for me its very important,netkar players will understand me 100%. A good FFB should give u info about tyres in dificult situatios for example on limit,in slow corners...Most ffb's have effects etc but are working when in high speed,whats the point of that? If its a codemasters ok...but here is a simulator right? My point is that im not a kind of person that is happy with a wheel that shakes..i want info on my wheel,i want the info to be true and not just effects to make me think that this ffb its cool...Im not saying this about this sim(well with so much rattling i cant understand what effects are coming into the wheel),i just want to make clear my point,thats all. Oh,and btw,the guys that saying that the ffb is aewsome,do they have wheels like frex or fanatec CSR elite or other hign end stuff? Cause in my g27 i have the problem that i said above...Anyway,i hope i get a clear answer. Thanks Edit: Oh and another one question i have,will the deformation(which is cool) will be lowered? I find it too much..I mean its realistic but dont u think that u overdone it a bit?
Ffb is very important to me too, Im not sure yet if any additional features are present or will be included is the tire formation linked to the ffb? Ie some bad flats spotting going to cause some fine wheel vibration etc? Alot of beta testers are posting alot about graphics but to me ffb is much more important
Yes Thanks for reminding me this,dont know if theres a vibration effect for blocking tyres but i remember myself watching the screen to understand if i was blocking the tyre,cause if there was an effect for blocking i couldnt feel anything,anyway if theres a vibration for that i would like it much more vibration definitely!(higher value i mean)
I really like it feeling connected with an obvious change when the tires lose traction, I've not had a chance to test in depth but will do tomorrow, might look in the config file too as wheel weight seems to have dropped since the last update Would be great if say if the cars suffers say a mild knock then there is a 20% (example figure) chance of failure within a few minutes which is first felt my some minor tugs on the ffb ( as suspension progressive damage ) diferent %'s depending on amount of minor knock/car contact etc
I have a CSR Elite now and FFB in rf2 is amazing. I had a G25 before borrowed from a friend and FFB (with Steering torque filter="0") was great too, but not to compare to the Elite. Due to the rattle i always was in fear i could break my friends G25 (wouldnt have cared that much if it was mine), so i couldnt enjoy much. Comparing FFB in rf2 to rf1, GT5 and pcars, FFB in rf2 is a completely different level. I dont have that much simracing experience. I tried netkarpro trial version too and FFB didnt convince me. (maybe a CSR Elite issue, didtn try that much) Did you try changing the default value: Steering torque zero-speed mult="0.45000" // Multiplier at zero speed to reduce unwanted oscillation from strong static aligning torque Maybe this helps to add more FFB at low speed, ive set it to 0.75 (Ive just seen Steering torque sensitivity="1.00000" // Sensitivity curve applied to representable torques: 0.0=low 1.0=linear 2.0=high - maybe this changes linearity?) But i think i know what you mean. I sometimes would like to get more FFB at low speed too, it depends alot on what car and where i drive. (e.g. Clio has alot FFB at low speed)
Vitoria Yes the ffb in rf2 is very good I'm a big fan of the ISI engine, since the 101 update it feels a bit off to me although more details which I like it feels less connected (which I don't like ) I use a t500 but have a frex (that's been in my house in its box unused for the last two weeks .....long story ! ), I will have a fiddle tomorrow night -thanks for your post with settings on etc, I'll be setting up and using the frex in a couple of weeks so it's that wheel I really want to sort/optimise settings for -for this build (loved the ffb on previous builds but it could be that I need to ajust these settings you've mentioned )
P.s yes Clio still feels nice It's the formula Renault 3.5 ( that I mainly used before) that feels a bit off now In desperation I quickly tried one of the classic f1's the branham (spelling?) & the ffb did real totally amazing so I guess I've been judging the ffb by the car I usually use
To answer the second issue first ... our wear model is incomplete at the moment so it's a bit difficult to get a good flatspot. But if you, for example, take one of the historics, put the brake bias to the front, and lock them up at high speed and keeping the power on for awhile, you can definitely make a flatspot that you will then feel. Look *very* closely while driving at low speed and you'll also find that the vibration in the FFB corresponds precisely to an indentation on the tire. To answer the first question, there's a few possibilities OTOH that could be looked into for the reduced feeling at low speed: 1) We tune the FFB level for cars based on the full range of feedback you might get. For high downforce cars, that means everything is scaled based on taking a turn at high speed, where you feel both the downforce and the gyroscopic effects on the tires. So it's almost natural that at low speed you don't feel as much because they are scaled down accordingly. One possible workaround is to use the controller.ini variable "Steering torque sensitivity" to make the weaker signals stronger while maintaining the same maximum. 2) Similarly, some modern power steering systems in racecars provide more power steering when the torque is higher. It wouldn't be precisely the same curve as the "Steering torque sensitivity" above, but it's a similar idea. At some point we intend to model the power steering systems but this is not high priority at the moment. 3) While our overall grip at low speeds are matched up well with real-life data (although I know some would argue that it doesn't feel like it), there is some question about how the aligning torque of the tires changes with speed. Most tire measurements assume it doesn't, but most tire measurements either ignore or actively remove temperature effects which can be quite significant at higher speeds. So basically, there's not much good data here, but I'm just suggesting that perhaps low-speed aligning torque could be relatively stronger than high-speed aligning torque, given other identical conditions. And seeing as how aligning torque is a big influence on force feedback, maybe that would make a noticeable difference. There have been other ideas thrown around (I'm pretty sure this has been discussed on this forum before), like adding some artificial weight from the rear tires. And we can't entirely dismiss them, because we're constantly trying to make up for the fact that there's no seat-of-the-pants feeling; we've only got the steering FFB, visuals and audio cues to make up for them.
With the first read i didnt understand much xD ill read it again but thanks for taking time to answer me I wanted to make such questions to understand if devs are well known of these things and are working on it,even if its not high prioritys. About blocking tyre,im not sure if u understand my question,im not talking about flatspots,im saying that the moment that my tyre blocks i want a more stronger vibration the reason i ask this is i feel it veeery weak and as a resut i take info from screen..Maybe its the rattling that prevents me from feeling it? If im not mistake ur saying that if i have much speed the vibration is stronger,so i feel it the moment that i block?But then again i need the same in slow corners.. Also about physics and data,im completely noob about these things but what i learned(and i think it is right) is that only data doesnt do the magical handling of a car or good physics right? I mean even if data is correct doesnt mean that the product will have realistic behaviour(im talking in general)..Maybe something else needs fixing so the data applys,maybe people's expiriences etc i really dont know,just saying.. Anyway thanks for ur answer to help me i really hope u can sort it out,for me its very important so im glad that ur known about these things.I had the feeling that ffb would stay as it is cause there many posts that saying that is aewsome etc and i was thinking that i was one of few people that having the same thoughts etc... PS:vittorio,i was searching,changing,playing with these values many times and i couldnt have the result i wanted,but thanks anyway
Thanks bokoboko for asking these questions and Terence Groening for the high quality answeres! Coincidental i got answers about questions that puzzled me too lately. I already suspected that the lower grip at lower speed for some cars is by design (e.g. missing downforce) and probably correct. Another thing is dealing with not ideal simracing hardware. I would like to minimize the cogging effect of my CSR Elite (which shouldnt be there, maybe a firmware issue). So the "Steering torque sensitivity" option hint is maybe gold for me. -> Lower high forces (less cogging), Raise low forces. I guess this is usefull for G25/G27 owners too -> Lower high forces (less rattling), Raise low forces (less FFB offset). (btw bokoboko: im sure you already set overall steering strength to 106% in the logitech driver to compensate the FFB offset at low forces that all G25/G27 have.)
the FFB in rf2 is currently a total fail. Ive said this ages ago, it feels exactly like RF1 with Realfeel plugin. Thats it. All you get is what the front tyres are doing, even the one of the most FUNDAMENTAL aspects of FFB in these simracing games is the weight transfer from the rear, its SO important, especially in oversteer conditions. I suggest you install rf1, and install the formula simracing league mod via simsync tool to get an idea of what the FFB should be like, ISI. Thats why the realfeel plugin had a 'mix' option, so you could blend in elements of the jolts and information coming from the front wheels, with the weighting up in the opposite direction due to the rear sliding. Whats even worse, this is compounded by lack of rear grip, especially at low speeds where its just silly - its as if ISI have totally ignored slip angle of tyres and how 'sticky' their grip is. they just need to copy netkar pro + put in netkar pro physics. Then the game will be good.
hmm i was goin to answer u at once but then i read it again ur post,ur saying that g25/27 wheels need 106 at least cause they dont "work" good enough with sims? wow first time i read that! I use 101 in all sims and only in iracing 106 or 107 cause someone made a research or something and said that for iracing needs these numbers..(ill start using 106 to see the diferences) Also,when i was "playing" with values in ffb,i realized that many of them didnt worked.I remember changing the "Steering torque sensitivity"...anyway,now all these values are working? I mean i thought game "listens" to default values and not to our changes. oh and also thanks all for the good conversation,i was prepared for more dificult "situations" but i had to take my chances xD EDIT:im refering to vitorio cause i posted same time with hiohaa
Terance Thanks for the valuable feedback, it really sound as though you ( /the devs/ISI ) are really trying to develop some great force feedback I will do the test on one of the historics I'll find that interesting. Can't wait untill all the intended features are switched on etc (out of beta etc ) Thanks again for the interesting read
Many people have checked the FFB linearity for G25/27, and around 105-107% overall strength always seems to give the best linearity. At 100% the wheel doesn't really respond to FFB commands that are below 15-20% force, whereas with the overall force at 107% it starts to respond at 5-10% force. The top end is a bit more compressed, but the overall linearity is almost always improved by going from 100% to 105-107%. This has nothing to do with any game, just how the G25/27 responds to input.
Firstly, many thanks Terence for taking the time to respond here. Would there be a way to measure this aligning torque? And what is meant with "perhaps low-speed aligning torque could be relatively stronger than high-speed aligning torque"? Maybe I am totally wrong here, but I would say that at high speed when the wheels are rotating faster, the self aligning torque would be greater, but on the other hand, when taking a tighter turn with less speed, the friction generated between the contact path of the tyre and the ground should be greater because of the greater turning angle, also causing a stronger torque to be transmitted to the steering rack. Is there any sense in this? Greets, R
Rony1984, I think there is much sense in what you say My 2 cents about FFB when the car is stationary. I think it's too weak (for example historic F1), I can move the wheel using one finger (Fanatec CSW set to 100% FFB, rF2 FFB mult 1.0). I remember in my old Mazda 323 (no power steering) I had to use some serious force to turn the wheels, and that was with very thin tires 135 mm.
thuGG, you have to change the value: Steering torque zero-speed mult="0.45000" // Multiplier at zero speed to reduce unwanted oscillation from strong static aligning torque
thuGG This seems to be a wheel related issue. My experience is that with the car stationary there is NO WAY i can move the wheel with one finger, and my ffb is not even close to 100 % I have to apply some average to strong input with both hands ( T500 RS) Sorry to disagree with you here on this point.
Hey guys, Firstly, this is a piece about FFB, which is maybe long known and outdated, but for me at least its new. Please have a read and comment, thanx! I did some experimenting with the Steering Torque Sensitivity function. I have to say that it does make a difference, but unfortunately, for me at least, doesn’t solve anything. I even made a discovery that made me a bit sad, I am hope I am wrong.. First the Steering Torque Sensitivity function. When I set it to 0.0, at low speeds almost all the torque was gone. Be aware, read torque and not effects. At the first meters out of the box, there was very clearly almost none torque to be felt, I could have rotated the wheel with my pinky I guess. But then after exiting the pits and braking for the first corner(we are at Croft) I felt something I hadn’t felt before in the BRT20: very subtle effects which reminded me of driving the Megane. You know that feeling of understeer in that car, that feeling of the tyres scrubbing or grinding over the asphalt? That’s exactly how it felt. This was confirmed later when going thought the turns. It was hardly drivable because of the absence of the torque, thus completely not having feeling of the direction of the car and the rear, but what the front tires did was very clearly to me. So my conclusion to this was that those effects of the front tyres scrubbing, is always there, though unfortunately in the background, probably overwhelmed by the torque forces. I wouldn’t know what makes this effect so weak with the BRT20(and all other 60's cars), but I guess it has to do with the physics: the softer suspension, the less rigid tyres, maybe even some build in margins? Lets stop here for a minute and have a look at the effects of 2.0 Steering Torque Sensitivity. Exactly opposite results as with 0.0, what a surprise But what I felt right away was a saturation of the FFB, like felt when the amplifier is set to high. The direction of the car was perfectly traceable now, as well was feeling the behavior of the rear, but every bit of effect seemed to be gone. Then I put the Torque Sensitivity back to 1.0 again, and therefore changed the overall FFB strength through the multiplier, as I had done before, but not with these magnitudes. So I scaled it at 40%, hoping to feel those effects again with some left overs of steering torque. But too bad, that didn’t work. The steering torque was almost absent, so were the effects. Okay so what is it that I fear now? I fear that if it is true that the Steering Torque Sensitivity function purely changes the linearity, and the amplifier the overall strength, like I assume after above tests, that would mean that someone with a G25/G27 will never be able to enjoy the full scale of FFB(torques and effects, don’t know whether I use the right definitions, but you ll get my meaning) within RF2. That is when, as I assume, the G25/G27 dont have the ffb range to transmit those forces. If they do or don’t I wouldn’t know, and I hope someone could an answer to this. Furthermore, now I am more curious than ever how a CSR-Elite or CSW wheel feels with RF2, because I have only heard that the effects are amazing. Are they maybe feeling all those subtleties that G25/G27 owners are missing? Greets, R
