You make aiw with DevMode?? Das meinst du nicht im Ernst!! That takes forever. It's perfectly possible to make a full aiw file with 3dsMax in 5 to 10 minutes (videos on this forum). All snark aside... I just found dev mode to be too restrictive and time consuming, so I'm writing something without all the limitations. Learning to edit them in a text editor was a necessary precursor to coding a more efficient way of doing aiw. To build our tracks, we use an expensive, precise set of tools (3dsMax). Why not use that precission to make precise aiw files? This year.... here.... free. View attachment 17361
Well, I've been busy Learned a lot and had to bring that into practice........and it worked! So thank you very much guys, all of you! I played around and now knew what was possible, which buttons to click, what line to click. I had a very crappy "GoldCoast" where the AI couldn't drive one lap without hitting something and tipping over. I made the blue lines and redid the fast line. Of course its not perfect, but you learn as you go along; a little bit of blue here, a shift in the fast line there.......I'm all figuring it out doing this stuff. No turn is the same and what works for one corner, doesn't have to work for the other. But I now know where to look, what to do. The AI drives nicely there now; I drove a fast line at 75% speed as I didn't want to make to many adjustments on the wheel (you have to with a fast open wheeler if you go 100%, right?) and steered in just a little earlier; that worked fine for me. Set the blue lines; no hitting anymore. Also; pit exit and merging with the fast line made the AI almost stop; I smoothened that one out and its also pretty okay now! Then; I let the AI race........first turn, side by side, no one backing off........tipping over again. And so I executed the "funneling" with just the blue line on the left coming in as the fast line is to the right. I didn't do that perfectly yet (as I said, learning more as you go along) because I think I started to late (at the 200M sign). But it does work; 4 out of 4 starts were messed up, now its 1 out of 4. Finetuning further, start at the 300M sign I think. So; for a guy who had no clue whatsoever........you trained me well guys I'm happy as I can now make the AI go around as I want them to go around. Thank you all very much!!
You've no idea how happy you made me to read that! Exactly, now you know what is possible, the experiments you perform will teach you a lot. These 'mistakes' will produce effects that you will be able to use on other corner types. Keep tweaking and you'll see the AI exceed what you thought was possible. Fast open wheelers... Sometimes I'll use a seemingly counter-productive car for this line. GTR for example, forces smoother arcs due to it's weight and lack of aero. Your method is sound though. To avoid erratic wheel motion, slightly less speed, turn in early and scrub out... as long as you scrub out smooth. Using this method, it tends to help with the throttle pickup of the AI.
Good Stuff Navigator, certainly quenching my thirst to dabble in tweaking AIW but not for a few more weeks yet! For the Gold Coast tweaking those corridors will become essential, same for me with Bathurst and it worked a treat in the end. Now you've got the knack of doing it you'll start "fixing" a few more tracks too
Aaaah OK Bink! Thats another story! I can´t do 3Dsmax! Never found someone to teach me Yes, good to hear! Happy to help! Now I hope you have enough time! It never ends from now on
Okay guys, busy with my new hobby However (how could it not) I do have some additional questions........ - When I change something somewhere; I have to drive there with the car........is there some other solution? (Smoke from the car heating is in the way) - The blue lines are going in big chunks; can I make smaller steps somehow? - The racing line fades at some places, rendering me unable to adjust.......is there a solution? - You speak of AI learning for themselves, but do I have to change the line for that in the player.jon? And last but not least; isn't it so that when I funnel the critical points on the track, there will be no action amongst AI anymore? I mean; they all drive the same top speed and should overtake by braking(?) and that will nog happen anymore........
Opinion: That's why you shouldn't funnel. If the cars are going wide on corner exit and crashing off the track (without provocation), move your fast line away from the corridor a bit. Crashes happen. If they happen too often, that would be an ISI problem (which I don't think exists). Prior to this thread, I'd never heard of funneling corridors. Over the past couple of years, I've made and tested hundreds of aiw files, and never found a need to try to 'trick' the ai in that way.... ISI has done a great job on it. Let 'em race. [Captain... prepare for a volley of incoming criticism..]
I get your drift and I have to admit; it doesn't happen that often. However, on this track, there is about 500 meter to go for the first corner and there are tire barriers.......they go next to each other and always(!) crash in the first lap and corner. Most all of the following cars, crash too. The fast line is away from that and is okay, but side by side; they don't care for that line anymore. Thats why I wanted to funnel; of the 20 cars starting; about 12 crash......... It should only be there for the first lap, but that is -in my mind- not possible.
Well I'm reluctant to label what I'm about to say 'criticism' and your experiences can't be argued with. But ISI's (admittedly slightly old) AIW creation tutorial does feature 'funneling' to deal with a particular track issue: http://rfactor.net/web/rf2/devscorner/ Personally I'm not convinced the workflow described in the tutorial works properly (I've mostly followed it a couple of times to get converted tracks working well enough for league purposes, and didn't seem to get everything necessary to get the AI fully working if I wanted to head down that route), but it does contain some instructions and keys Navigator may find useful.
Bink, you'll not find negative responses of your philosophies from me. I respect your work and will be utilizing it. Before doing so, I just need to understand rF2s AI at a deep level. Even if I only use it for Pits and Garages, it will be amazing but rest assured I'll be testing it thoroughly. As Lazza has mentioned, it is not a trick but simply another tool available in dev mode. Much like Collision Corridors which Navigator may find useful at this stage. They work the same way as corridors and are visible in the show/hide menu. My knowledge of them is limited at this stage and information is scarce but when testing with a private Paul Ricard with bollards and not being able to rectify the situation with corridors, collision corridors seem to have a stronger effect. Still, when side by side, regardless of how far I pushed the corridors out they would still hit it in aero cars. So I had no choice but to remove them. I've lots still to learn in this area. If I had more time, I'd use the funneling effect to force any overtakes to be completed before the apex, so that they don't go side by side. Get the balance right and you'd have the very occasional attempted overtake there.
Guys, if I may be so blunt, but you point me towards the tutorial, respond to Bink and no answers to my questions; may I take from that you think I should look into the tut for answers? Because that is the problem; I can't find my answers in there. Maybe they are in there and I just don't understand it then; I studied it, I really did, but 90% of it all is abracadabra to me still. Collision corridors........I left them alone because I thought they had the use that you actually hit a barrier when you drive against it. I have no places where I can drive through walls or hit something that is not there. So I thought its not for me. I did find the cutting corridors though; got a message I was cutting the track while I was not........so I set them and testing now Unfortunately I -for whatever reason- I clicked on "find corridors" and now all is gone (the funneling and so on) and without having a good backup (I know.......) I have some work to do Off to study the tut again; hope I missed something there!
Not at all mate. Since the last doco and subsequent feedback from it, there have been a further 6 hours put into it. Another 6 hours testing for the next 6 hours of it. I've had to continue with the track work I've put aside to do this AI doco, so there's about 14 hours there. Tonight I had a night off to do 2 hours of racing online. Regarding your question, the answer is simply I only have subjective answers at this time. As I mentioned, Paul Ricard exhibited similar problems with the bollards but the S at Norisring is perfect. Because I ran out of time at Paul Ricard, I just removed them. So that's why I'm not able to guide you 100% It's part of the testing I'm doing now. The scope of the document is common problems as there is already comprehensive documentation available, but I see this as a common problem and certainly understand it needs to be written in a way that anyone can follow it. I'm just not as good as you want me to be... yet!
hehe, you were talking about this one, no? Sorry mate just missed it. I'm not sure why the car overheats if invulnerable, but I've added some additional cars for various tasks. Skip is great just about anywhere. Doco says Ctrl-Shift arrow, but I'd say it's ctrl-alt arrow. I've only seen this with rFactor converts. Redoing the main path may be required but it doesn't affect the AI it seems. Yep, that's something the user can do when the AI is solid. It adds flavour and is not for fixing problems really. The action thing is interesting. I'm not sure how to describe... With corridors guiding them like in the pic below, I'd expect maybe 1 or two passes attempted per race. If they were still misbehaving, I'd be looking at reducing their braking capability or seeing if aggression was too high. View attachment 17378
Just a copy and paste from this thread. Maybe it's helpful. http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/25641-HOW-TO-Fixing-common-AI-problems-with-rFactor-2-Tracks Corridors define the drivable surface for the AI. The AIW editor can create corridors by using the "find corridors *" option in the main menu. Every object marked as racesurface (racesurface prefix in the gmt name, for instance racesurface01.gmt) is included. If you work on an older track make sure the gmt's for curbs (or any other drivable surface) have this prefix, otherwise they are not included and you have to extend the corridors manually. To extend or reduce the corridors you have to make them visible in the "show/hide menu". Make sure that no driving line is visible/actionable (path sub menu) at the same time. You can mark every main waypoint you want to change and use the Ctrl-key + Cursor up/down to change the left (white) corridor and Ctrl-key + Cursor left/right to change the right (red) corridor. For small adjustment use Ctrl + Alt + Cursor. If you have modified the corridors you should not use the "find corridors *" option again because it overwrites all your changes. I usually create a backup of the AIW and rename the copy after each step. You can use the same principle to finetune the paths. Just mark the path in the path sub menu as visible/actionable and hide everything else. Use the "show Speed Text" option in the path submenu to give you an indication how your changes affect the AI speed. The smoothest path is not always the best. At some places it might be a good idea to add a small kink (slowdown) before a curve or a chicane to give the AI a better position and weight balance at the entry of the curve (depends on the mod. F1 cars behave differently than GT's or FWD cars) . When you testdrive your AI in Devmode you will notice different colored indicator lines in front of the car. The blue line shows in the direction of the waypoint with the slowest speed for that part of the track (max corner speed). btw, usually I never drive myself during AIW editing. I let the AI drive (I-key) in swing cam view and when I have to change something I pause the game, adjust the swing cam view, mark all waypoints I need to modify and edit the parts that need to be changed.
Yep, thats the one No need to say sorry mate. Don't get me wrong; I'm very, very grateful with the awesome help I got here! But it could just as well be "you guys" were now thinking: "dude, rtfm once in your life, will you?" But I did read ISI's manual and couldn't find the answers other than the "small changes" (using the alt key with it) that I did mis. I also studied your "HOW TO" and find it more accurate/easier to understand and more informative. Thanks for that btw! I just discovered something else btw; getting the "cut track" message, I worked with the show/hide menu and made the cut lines visible. There were green lines on either side of the waypoint. A few came up short and didn't reach the curb. So I figured; with one wheel outside the green line; there will be a message. The more because all other waypoints, have the lines reaching both side and the whole track wide. The message should be because coming outside the line. What I noticed was; I made blue lines at the chicane because the AI was hitting the curbs to hard (even with a proper fast line). The places where I made the blue lines; thats where the green cutlines were retracted. Extending them made the blue lines withdraw........ They can't be in the same place?? The first corner before start/finish; I funneled and the left side of the track, has no green lines there; there is no cut message though when going over it. I am outside the green with all fours........ Anyway; the chicane at half track needed some of both, but that can't be done. I don't want a message there, but now the AI is stumbling upon the curbs there. Am I doing something wrong?
I recall seeing something similar about them being joined. I'll add it to the testing. To backtrack a little... When you create the fast path, the left and right are auto calculated. If you overwrote them with your own, it may be worth rolling back. Likewise, if you have not recorded them separately, you may find benefit in doing so. The corridors can be powerful, but are to be used to guide traffic rather than force.
I think a possible issue here is that rFactor allows us to put classes of cars on circuits that they would be reluctant to run on in 'real life' because the design of the track and the characteristics of the car's formula equate to carnage. If there is a 10,000 hp Funny Car mod, I suppose you could try to run an rFactor race with them on a go-kart track, but the race wouldn't last too long. In a real life, well funded racing series when a buttload of cars crash out at some point on the track, the next season one or more of the following is usually done: -- the legal down force gets reduced for that track (Indycar) -- restrictor plates are introduced to limit speeds (NASCAR) -- a chicane is inserted to slow cars down (Endurance, F1, & Indycar street circuits) -- straight is narrowed / corner widened -- larger paved run-off area -- track is dropped from the schedule I can understand why modders would want to use corridors to funnel cars, but regarding the problem the OP stated, I would rather change the entry straight and/or corner slightly to fix the incompatibility... rather than making overtakes impossible on what could be a great place to pass later in the race. Very few users would even notice if the straight progressively narrowed to a car width less wide, the corner became a car width wider, and the run-off area became a bit more forgiving.
Strangest thing; just now the problem was not present....... the lines were overlapping nicely. I did restart the game when having the problem (not just for that, but I was having it time and time again this afternoon). Its time for the paths; I'm going at it I didn't do them just yet, so I will now. Thanks for the advice! Btw; doing this.......I like it and now I'm getting thirsty Got something I want to try out on another track I just love........going to open a new topic for that as its probably a whole other ballgame and it doesn't suit here. Edit, sorry Bink, just read your reply now when I posted this. I take it into account, thanks!
1. like mat said take another car and/or open cooling to max. save setup 2. it´s CTRL+arrows 3. only solution I use (there may be a better one): use NumBlock 8 and 2 for flip the view from buttom up! And zoom out. 4. In this "ultimate AI thread", or how its named. Don´t know if recomms there are good, cant look my settings as Im not at home. "funneling": Never tried that. Should only be used when urgent emergency is on. Try to do a path that don´t need that! Then it´s a good one.
