Brakes wear.

Discussion in 'Car Modding' started by mantasisg, Jun 19, 2020.

  1. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    1,599
    Likes Received:
    2,353
    Hi, I guess rF does not simulate brake pads wear, am I correct ?

    I see there is brake disc wear (I suppose it is brake disc wear, as I saw it is labeled so in UI). Of course the disc does not wear much at all, and it is a bit of a wonder to me why it is simulated and not brake pads wear instead. Of course I suppose brake disc would change its characteristic very slightly as it wears down through lets say - being used at race for 24 hours, also we could simulate it to be made out of some very rapidly wearing material, which I can not think of, and it probably just isn't and hasn't been thought by anyone ever.

    If rF2 does not simulate brake pads wear, then to me it is a wonder. Call it a wishlisting, I am not a programmer, but I can not imagine it would be much of new stuff to simulate pads wear when discs wear is already there, it would just need additional pits function - to change them, which is the whole thing why endurance simulation should have it.

    I am not well informed about modern technology, but I know that in sixties Ford had increased success because they developed a design which allowed to change worn pads quickly. So brakes pad chenging was important. And brake pads with various braking power thus friction and wear must have been a choice to do.
     
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    7,922
    Likes Received:
    3,414
    You'll see some legacy entries from rF1 mentioning pad material, so it's definitely been a consideration at times but never implemented. It is perhaps something that'll get revisited with the current focus on endurance racing.
     
  3. Risto Kappet

    Risto Kappet Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2012
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    172
    rF(2) engine does simulate break wear very well, but not changing brake pads in the pits (although I can see it being possible to implement)
    Simply most of the mods, including newer S397 official content, have the brake life turned up near to infinity, because they havent had time to tune and perfect the values.
    There are mods out there, like the Formula Renault 3.5 for example, which have break wear modelled very well - the wear increases exponentially once you are over the optimal brake temp, and the brakes can fail once you have worn down a certain amount of brake disc.
     
    TJones likes this.
  4. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    1,599
    Likes Received:
    2,353
    Thanks for the info.

    Brakes are very interesting thing to have in a car :D I hope in future there could be some of the brakes pad stuff to deal with. I had some pleasure modeling brakes fade for 50s drum brakes, it is an interesting experience to have brakes starting to REALLY go away at some point of temperature reached, because I am so used to take brakes for granted in simracing, perhaps only bit that goes on in simracing that takes some care is having brakes bellow operating temperature window for first lap. It is a bit strange to account wear of disc instead of pads, but I am now interested to make a go with Formula Renalt, actually it always was an interesting one.
     
    Seven Smiles likes this.
  5. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    973
    Likes Received:
    758
    I guess most players are taking fully operational brakes for granted. I am certainly in that category too.
    If I am not mistaken someone from Kunos said regarding brake wear that if it were implemented then typical street car's brakes would last for two laps.
    How fun would that be for most players?
    Rf2 doesn't have nowhere as many road cars as AC has but nevertheless I guess it would be issue with racing cars too.
     
  6. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,171
    Likes Received:
    1,542
    Didn't GTR2 have brake change? I could be mistaken, but I remember some of the radio calls when pitting was about brakes
     
  7. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Messages:
    3,241
    Likes Received:
    1,825
    yes
     
  8. David Wright

    David Wright Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    23
    rF2 has its roots in rF1 which has its roots in the EA F1 series. F1 brakes are primarily driven by disc wear rather than pad wear, and the brake discs can fail very spectacularly, if you get the brake cooling wrong (F1C included brake duct settings). And of course there are no brake disc changes in F1, so the game doesn't have the option of brake repairs/changes.

    In the 60s the Ford GT MkIIs actually had issues with brake disc cracking which was why they put effort into changing them quickly.
     
  9. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    1,599
    Likes Received:
    2,353
    Nice to know why there is focus on brake discs wear then, I did not know that before, used to think that disc would never wear more than brake pad.

    I did not know that ford also did develop disc changing, I know for sure that Phill Remigton developed fast pads changing system.

    I just did quick search, found some citations. Quite a surprise that they designed both: https://forums.autosport.com/topic/212719-gt40-brake-changing/ Also seems like they did solve rotors cracking by making vents curved.

    @Filip Then just implement durable brakes for track usage, no one is going to cruise at 40 in racing sims for months anyway, even in AC that is advertised as "driving sim", ironically driving slow takes perhaps more realistic physics to get immersed than when getting into heat of racing. Kunos always was for those kind of things not to be worth the effort. For example Stefano once said that simulating radiator with its different settings makes no sense, because it is just grinding setup. I disagree, because there is a lot of exciting stuff behind it, like being able to slip stream for longer if chosen more cooling, or winning few kph on straights with less cooling and less drag. As for brakes wear, I don't see it much different from tires wear, but just for braking of course. I am not a specialist of brakes, but I suppose brakes designed for racing, wouldn't be done in few laps. Furthermore, I think many gamers including some experienced simracers rarely drive for more than 20 minutes continuously. I would suppose a hour and more would be time where brakes wear would begin to appear.

    Does anyone know more about how much brakes pads lasts ?
     
  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    7,922
    Likes Received:
    3,414
    @mantasisg I must admit from your first post I concentrated on the pads issue, but disc wear is very much a thing in select mods. I did F1 league mods for years and that was a major factor (moreso than engine wear). The thing is, in stuff like the 70's cars I'm working on I think I'm aiming for a different audience, and obviously different cars. So for the same reason I'm avoiding having radiator settings / cooling issues, I'm also avoiding things like 'brake' wear - I find for more casual racing it takes away from the enjoyment because it can help those with more time find the little advantages that put them out of reach, or it can ruin races for those who don't consider it. So I would reserve such things for mods aimed at leagues and more serious events that are aiming to emulate real races/series where those wear items are a factor.

    For pads, it's obviously car/series dependent. Aussie supercars do pad changes at the Bathurst 1000 (effectively a 6.5 hour race), haven't really watched in depth enough recently to tell you how many times or whether it's more a sporting regulation with a safety basis rather than a physical necessity. But with rF2's capabilities currently you really don't factor that in, because you can't replenish the 'discs'. However, if a mod has brake cooling options then you would need to consider it an important aspect and make them fail at certain target distances/times with poor setup selections, or again you're just putting something in that'll give some people a performance advantage with no detriment.
     
  11. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Messages:
    1,599
    Likes Received:
    2,353
    IMO casual racing and brakes wear doesn't mix. Because if racing is at such duration that brakes wear would start kicking in, it shouldn't be considered as casual anymore. At least for me racing for more than 90minutes, is a big race, actually anything over a hour is not feeling casual anymore.

    Also, on about spending time on finding advantages, I believe that then any setup is under question mark too, because all of that can take time to find an advantage, that someone will probably take, and then what - fixed setups ? Are we going that way ? Though, fixed setups at least isn't unrealistic.

    I understand some of the "good" drivers frustration when they are lacking skill or time for setting up cars, so "worse" drivers perform better. I think if this will be the route, then it is guarantee for fun to be reduced.
     
  12. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    819
    Likes Received:
    880
    Road cars on track: I was at a track day when a Walkinshaw VXR8 (UK-imported and modified Holden) came into the paddock after a short session with smoke absolutely pouring from the discs. That is a high-performance road car and it had been fitted with "track day" pads. Another time because there was a strong smell of friction material I was certain my clutch had gone but it turned out to be a couple of TVRs half a lap ahead of me, they could only go out for half a dozen laps before they had to go in and let things cool down. A lot is down to weight, my car has "road" pads but can drive all day long on track without any problem but it weighs under 550 kg whereas a TVR is over 1000 kg and the VXR8 over 1800.
     

Share This Page