Are Replays important?

[slatanek]

So watching the SimRacingExpo 2019 races I noticed how good the iRacing coverage was. Specifically how realistic the camera work was, how realistic the chassis flex/suspension work/body roll of the cars was. In general the vehicle dynamics seemed just as IRL. You could easily read the cars attitude into the corners. Also the choice of camera angles, the right amount of shake and focus/zoom hunting. The only other sim that comes close that I can think of is the original AC, especially with the static cameras (which is how you'd experience it being at the race track spectating). Unfortunately, rFactor 2 (AMS even more so) doesn't impress in this regard.The replays just don't convey the pitch/roll of the car and the suspension travel - as it is now what I feel driving in rFactor 2 doesn't line up with what I see in the replays. All the little things I feel thru the suspension/chassis are lost watching from outside. It's as if the replays were showing half of the physics detail at work.

The question is: how important is it for the general appeal (streamed online races)? What makes the biggest difference in how the replays look? And does it bother you?

 

[mantasisg]

I think it is very important, perhaps I would also add the screenshots. These things sells a lot. Definitelly bothers me, because it even generates doubts for me if something looks not right.

I agree about iR, it looks superb from external views, even in slowmotions, which IMO the hardest to get look right. I disagree about AC, external views shows that something is not happening with the car there IMO.

I also have had thought that external cams of rF2 only reads some of the physics, or something like that, perhaps becauce that they aren't as stunning, also camera placing and adjustments means a lot, which takes some feel for nice approach, then graphics plays a role, and finally - the sounds...

 

[davehenrie]

The Papyrus/iRacing replay used to always outshine the ISI produced replay. There was a large improvement in the rFactor1 replay and most of that has carried over to rF2, but back when we were fanboys of the Nascar/Indycar/GPL titles, their side won. I haven't used iRacing since the very earliest beta, but it would not surprise me that the iR replays continue to look better.

 

[slatanek]

I think it is very important, perhaps I would also add the screenshots. These things sells a lot. Definitelly bothers me, because it even generates doubts for me if something looks not right.

I agree about iR, it looks superb from external views, even in slowmotions, which IMO the hardest to get look right. I disagree about AC, external views shows that something is not happening with the car there IMO.

I also have had thought that external cams of rF2 only reads some of the physics, or something like that, perhaps becauce that they aren't as stunning, also camera placing and adjustments means a lot, which takes some feel for nice approach, then graphics plays a role, and finally - the sounds...

Yeah it is bothersome. I mean part of being a race fan is staring at the cars going by and reading what's happening with the vehicle. When I watch iRacing it just feels like when I'm at Spa spectating.
Concerning AC - I like their static camera's since as I said this is how you're experiencing it at the track.

The Papyrus/iRacing replay used to always outshine the ISI produced replay. There was a large improvement in the rFactor1 replay and most of that has carried over to rF2, but back when we were fanboys of the Nascar/Indycar/GPL titles, their side won. I haven't used iRacing since the very earliest beta, but it would not surprise me that the iR replays continue to look better

Nice piece of information

 

[Patrick Schumacher]

Vers important. Iracing is top notch...

 

[Korva7]

There is "replay fidelity" setting that seems to be on medium as default.

 

[Slip_Angel]

So watching the SimRacingExpo 2019 races I noticed how good the iRacing coverage was. Specifically how realistic the camera work was, how realistic the chassis flex/suspension work/body roll of the cars was. In general the vehicle dynamics seemed just as IRL. You could easily read the cars attitude into the corners. Also the choice of camera angles, the right amount of shake and focus/zoom hunting. The only other sim that comes close that I can think of is the original AC, especially with the static cameras (which is how you'd experience it being at the race track spectating). Unfortunately, rFactor 2 (AMS even more so) doesn't impress in this regard.The replays just don't convey the pitch/roll of the car and the suspension travel - as it is now what I feel driving in rFactor 2 doesn't line up with what I see in the replays. All the little things I feel thru the suspension/chassis are lost watching from outside. It's as if the replays were showing half of the physics detail at work.

The question is: how important is it for the general appeal (streamed online races)? What makes the biggest difference in how the replays look? And does it bother you?

I agree iracing cars looks much more alive and realistic in replays compared to RF2. I don't know if this is because iracing has better vehical physics or rf2 just don't want to show the working in replays.
But here is my thought, if RF2 don't want to bother showing car's movement in replay like iRacing then why does it even bother with tyre animation(flex, flatspot etc) ?
Oh man if iracing ever allow one time purchase just to play offline i bet people would be flying over that sim right now because TBH cars quality in iracing TO ME feels much much better than RF2. currently pricing is way to high and illogical for me since i can't play online because of my net and generally i'm not interested.

 

[slatanek]

I never was too fond of iRacing tyre/physics model. Their suspension and transmission model are top-notch though. Where rF2 shines IMHO is the tyre and car weight - it's the only sim out there where after a roll the car hits the ground as if it was a 1000kg of mass hitting solid surface. iRacing by comparison feels as if the cars were balloons in that scenario.

In replays though nothing comes close to iRacing

 

[hitm4k3r]

I agree iracing cars looks much more alive and realistic in replays compared to RF2. I don't know if this is because iracing has better vehical physics or rf2 just don't want to show the working in replays.
But here is my thought, if RF2 don't want to bother showing car's movement in replay like iRacing then why does it even bother with tyre animation(flex, flatspot etc) ?
Oh man if iracing ever allow one time purchase just to play offline i bet people would be flying over that sim right now because TBH cars quality in iracing TO ME feels much much better than RF2. currently pricing is way to high and illogical for me since i can't play online because of my net and generally i'm not interested.

The reason why replays in rF2 look worse has nothing to do with the underlying physics but how much of it get's shown in the replays. Best sign for this is that rF2 looks quite a bit better from cockpit view on track. And there was a time when iRacing replays where huge in comparison of how much hardrive space they required. Not sure if this is still the case, but rF2 replays are allways stored by default so they have to be somewhat moderate in disk space consumption. I would need to make a proper test, but I think there is a reason why iRacing replays aren't stored by default. Where iRacing really shines though is the camera work and external sound of the cars. Anyway. The replay system can and should be improved if showing proper esports is the goal.

 

[davehenrie]

The replay system can and should be improved if showing proper esports is the goal.

For eSports, you would almost think there should be some option to have two or more servers who's function is just to record and play replays. Producers could cue up some action on one, start the replay for the voice talent, then move to another server for more replays etc etc. Trying to keep it all inside the sim seems to limit what can be shown.

 

[Filip]

This is important topic.
I agree to everything what was said here.
iRacing car movement is lifelike, camera management is great. I don't know if there is any technical limitation but I would like that rf2 just copies entire replay system from iRacing.
Imo replays don't do justice to Rf2, they make it look arcadish, if I were to showcase someone Rf2 I would skip replays.
From my limited time in LFS there car behavior also looks convincing although replay management is not that good as in iRacing

 

[Filip]

And for me replays are more important than UI

 

[Filip]

An while we at it there seems to be a change in replay system judging by this video of new UI (starts at 6:08)

 

[slatanek]

An while we at it there seems to be a change in replay system judging by this video of new UI (starts at 6:08)

Good stuff! The UI looks really nice and functional. I hope it'll be released this year

 

[bwana]

Unimportant to me, have replays turned off. I see your point though with esports gaining sooo much popularity it’s probably very important to stream viewers.

 

[lagg]

Replays are necessary for stewards and leagues.

 

[MarcG]

Replays are also important for diagnosing "AI Issues"

 

[slatanek]

Replays ae also just cool to watch IF they are of good quality and I mean quality of capturing cars behavior in motion (suspension travel, chasis flex, tyre deformation etc). Good replays (iRacing comes to mind) look so close to reality that as a motorsport fan it's just enjoyable/exciting to watch.

 

[Nielsen]

The Papyrus/iRacing replay used to always outshine the ISI produced replay. There was a large improvement in the rFactor1 replay and most of that has carried over to rF2, but back when we were fanboys of the Nascar/Indycar/GPL titles, their side won. I haven't used iRacing since the very earliest beta, but it would not surprise me that the iR replays continue to look better.

The reason between NR2003/iRacings replays and at least all the ISI/gMotor game derivatives(GTR, GTR2, GTL, rF1/2, Automobilista, RaceRoom, pCARS1/2, and..) is that NR2003/iRacing actually save the car behaviour on the track as (some kind of "video" stream) while the gMotor game derivatives only save a cars waypoints on the track.
The reason is that saving only waypoints is much more compact than saving a more or less full "video" of the car on the track.

You can se the huge difference if you play the replay in slooow mooo or play it backwards.
In NR2003/iRacing the slide angle of the car is still displayed as on the orig lap - while all the gMotor game derivatives does change this angle (+ the vertical bouncing) so it nicely fit the replay speed.
Thats also the reason you can use the NR2003/iRacing to hone your skills while playback of gMotor derivatives can at best be used as some kind of game entertainment.

ByTheWay: This is also the reason a replay from ISI/gMotor game derivatives allways look as the driver know what he is doing while a replay from NR2003/iRacing does reveal all the faults.

 

[slatanek]

The reason between NR2003/iRacings replays and at least all the ISI/gMotor game derivatives(GTR, GTR2, GTL, rF1/2, Automobilista, RaceRoom, pCARS1/2, and..) is that NR2003/iRacing actually save the car behaviour on the track as (some kind of "video" stream) while the gMotor game derivatives only save a cars waypoints on the track.
The reason is that saving only waypoints is much more compact than saving a more or less full "video" of the car on the track.

You can se the huge difference if you play the replay in slooow mooo or play it backwards.
In NR2003/iRacing the slide angle of the car is still displayed as on the orig lap - while all the gMotor game derivatives does change this angle (+ the vertical bouncing) so it nicely fit the replay speed.
Thats also the reason you can use the NR2003/iRacing to hone your skills while playback of gMotor derivatives can at best be used as some kind of game entertainment.

ByTheWay: This is also the reason a replay from ISI/gMotor game derivatives allways look as the driver know what he is doing while a replay from NR2003/iRacing does reveal all the faults.

Well if that's the case then the solution should be simple - just turn the freakin' full recording on! It's not the year 2000 anymore. People are running PC's with 4TB of storage.
But seriously, I feel like there's more to it than that - the camera work in gMotor sims is mediocre at best and cannot be explained by saving space/resources. I think noone gives a shit and that's the problem.