A renew of modding world is possible...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by vivemclaren, May 21, 2019.

  1. vivemclaren

    vivemclaren Registered

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    Hello everyone,

    Firstly, I make a short observation of the small modding world and after that, I will try to make some propositions/ideas to dynamize this little world!

    During my thought, I have rambled from this main observation: “Why are there less and less modding team?” I don’t want to judge some behavior (I will try) and I really want to make just an observation

    Of course I can NOT point one person more than others. I think really everybody has a part of responsibility. However I don’t want to point ONLY the “illegal” ripping, it is too easy! Every modder began working on a small conversion for him and it is like that which we can learn!

    One of responsible group is the modding teams themselves for some good or bad reasons (ripping, the willing to keep their level of requirement and so on). How?

    1. Modding team was quite exclusive and closed sometimes (as I said for some good or bad reasons) and didn’t accept the help really easily too!
    2. Maybe modding team didn’t help enough the people which want to learn modding! That is true! I thank Enduracers team and Klo-che who believe in me and help me to progress in my skills. I made some errors with Enduracers when I’m a teenage, it is true if Klo-Che reads that!
    3. Modding become a real business for professional race team and it can be explain the first point. However, modding become a business by another way, payware…. I think it is not a good way to mod sincerely although I understand why it come in this world (Sorry I judge a bit…)!
    4. The choices of different teams was questionable too! For example, when I arrived in VLM JT, after some conversation, the choice to make one whole pack is questionable, this choice causes a certain frustration in community (and not only I think).
    5. The modding teams are against conversions and improvements/variations without discussions but as I said above, it is a part of modding world! In VLM JT, we chose to open our work for that because we thought our work need to be “preserved” in the future too and can be helped the future modding generation! For the improvements/variations, I will take an example of HSO who made a new physic set for GTPC, I think it is a good way to make modding too!
    One of responsible group is the non-modding community too.
    Non-willing to learn a modding field and, I have to say, I understand too, the requested level is really high now! But I think the community neglects one field of modding: the research of the resources to model. A field that I hate personally… because I want to be too accurate in my model for sure. Personally again, I think the request must be a part of the modding world. Of course, the request must not be just “I want that” or “I want now, it is too long” as it is done too many times! The request must be “I would like that and I would like helping” and for example, in the research of pictures, dimensions, data for physics and so on!

    And I don’t want to point the first responsible group which is more responsible than other one. I think it come in same time of incomprehension! There are maybe more reasons for the non-modding community, but I think the self-criticism is easier for me!

    I think this sentence concludes my observation! The next part is coming and the most interesting for me.

    Indeed I forgot deliberately one important observation! We lost a really important forum! This is RaceSimCentral where is a very international forum and where all teams are, sorry for new forums, I think RSC was a must for me! (Another important forum for me was No-Grip)

    So the question is: “What is this idea/proposition to dynamize the modding world?”

    General idea

    My very first idea is a new international forum where we can work together and where we can show openly our progress even with opened beta test (It is fashion in video game industry, so why not for modding?). As I said below, everyone can have a role in it!

    3D and integration idea

    The second idea is a whole mod with the same structure which can be defined, of course, I have a proposition to fit really well to the reality (one VEH by race). However I can describe more that later!

    In the same idea, we can divide the 3D model in different categories as GT5, for example, it is just a proposition:
    1. Premium+ car (70-100k triangles with mechanical parts)
    2. Premium car (50-80k triangles without mechanical parts)
    3. Standard+ car (rFactor/GTR2/GTL polycount with mechanical parts (GTPC))
    4. Standard car (rFactor/GTR2/GTL polycount without mechanical parts (BTL/old Enduracers cars))
    5. Basic car (F1C polycount)
    6. Grid Filter (Low poly as SCGT car)
    PS: GP4 or GPL model can be interesting too, but I don’t categorize it easily!

    This kind of categorization can allow to everyone to model with his level. For example, I am in categories 3-4 and I never did a model of categories 1-2. So it is not a judgment, just a way to include everyone. Category 5-6 is more reserved to conversion, however I think a new modeler can do a categories 5-6 if he needs firstly and improve it (or remake it if need) with help of experimented modeler! These categories allow physic maker to work on their part too. For me, the target is the two first categories of course.

    The third idea is making a full work (a full version car with all different version, for example if I do a Ferrari F430, I will try to do a F430 GT2, GT3 and Challenge.

    We need let all modeler used a personal model to do a new aero configuration! In addition of this idea, we don’t have to work on the same model in the same time and as I said below, it is more profitable to help the other on his model, so the modeler must accept the critical review too and the critical person must accept a different opinion of modeler too! I did a very wrong model which is really appreciated (The Porsche 956 of GTPC, yes yes, some parts are completely wrong)!

    I speak for a very accurate historic mod because I love that. Of course a modern mod with less variations is good too and in my vision of modding, another modder can add some variations!

    The fourth idea is sharing the model which can be used on several cars! Rims, steering wheel and so on, for example! Helmet is a good example too! Having a database of all helmets in racing will be very cool for me and add a nice detail!

    The fifth idea is allowed the conversion to other games because it was a problem in the past I think! Of course, for a historic model the genstring or upgrade files of ISI engine is very helpful and it will be complex to convert it to AC for example. I think converting GTPC on AC is really difficult and I see two conversions to GTR2 and AMS only!

    Of course, my field in modding is 3D modelling and integration. I really likes how VLM/VLM JT integrated the car with a common gen file and upgrade files to integrate the car! I think in this kind of global mod, it can be useful, but one common gen file is maybe too hard for prototype car and open wheeler which had different constraints.

    On GTx5, there was one very cool stuff which VLM JT did not integrate in GTPC. As you know perhaps, GTPC integrated a reflection of cockpit on the windscreen and GTx5 includes the reflection on the windscreen and a halo on dashboard of the revlight which switch on/off (I will do some screens to show you!). An important field is the R&D of graphic part too!

    2D and skins idea

    As you know, 2D texturing and physics is not my field, so I cannot make a categorization as for 3D model although I have already thought about the texture size for 2D texturing. Vector drawing can be useful to size up the texture, but it is quite difficult to use a photorealism texture with vector drawing! (I have wrong maybe about vector drawing and photorealism texture… I don’t know!) A database of texturing or sponsor logos can be really useful!

    I think a car will be released without all skins for example and a V2.0 can be release with more skins done by painter!

    Track modding

    I’m not a track modeler too. As 2D texturing, I have thought about this subject too. Try making most of track layout and let other modeler making a variation for a special year or race will be really great! I am not a big fan of laser scanned tracks because I love historic track!

    As the categorization of 3D car model, we can do a categorization for the progress of the track:
    1. Alpha test with only the main road during a couple of weeks, so we can confirm to the 3D modeler his mind about the accuracy of the road
    2. Beta test with the global ground with rails and the experimented 3D track modeler can ask some helps to some less experimented 3D track modeler (because I think building and environment is easier to learn than the loft method for road and global ground! I have wrong maybe)
    3. Final release V1.0 with everything.
    4. Next release : Other modeler can add some versions. For example, if I do a new Spa-Francorchamps from 79 to now and I have done with all layouts and no temporary sponsors, somebody else can add 1999 F1 GP version with the new sponsors, new rail positions, new gravel parts, new kerbs colour and so on.
    Maybe the categorization for the origin of the track can be great too. A new model track or a GPL track are not done with the same standard of course! I want to include the conversion modders, it is important to learn IA and so on too!

    A database of track parts and 2D texturing can be great too of course!

    I think a 3D track modeler can develop that better than me!

    To conclude, I would like a modding world which is more opened and with more mutual assistance at all! This vision of modding was thought during the first moment of a stillborn mod and for this stillborn mod to be honest https://www.virtualr.net/sportscars-unlimited-rfactor-2-first-previews

    So I open the discussion about these ideas! I let you give your mind about them and add some new ideas! I made an opinion pool! Thank you for your reading and your future contribution!Don't hesitate to share this topic!

    PS: I don’t speak about sound modding, because I don’t have knowledge about that!
    PPS: Sorry, the message is not as well structured as I want!
     
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  2. UsedMomo

    UsedMomo Registered

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  3. vivemclaren

    vivemclaren Registered

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    Can you explain to me the link between GPLV3 and my vision of modding? Do you mean that my vision exist in GNU exploitation system like Linux?
    Don't hesitate to explain! My actual approach is a global discussion!
     
  4. UsedMomo

    UsedMomo Registered

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    Only open source licenses should be allowed. This will increase the numbers and speed of projects
     
  5. vivemclaren

    vivemclaren Registered

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    So my approach is not so stupid for you isnt it?
     
  6. UsedMomo

    UsedMomo Registered

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    It seems like a very good starting point.
     
  7. dylbie

    dylbie Registered

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    My brief (and probably invalid) opinion:

    The reasons modding has dwindled in the last 5 years or so:
    1. The complexity of modding for rFactor2. Just read the how to guide of making raindrops on windows.
    2. The attitudes of iRacing devs towards modding because of the detrimental effect it will have on their profits. Why let modders make cars when they can make a car every couple of months and sell it? Also what they did with the NR2003 scene (although admittedly I don't know too much about this).
    3. The ease of modding in Assetto Corsa. Having looked 'under the bonnet' of a few AC mods it really amazes me how simple it is, and how easily cars could be made when compared with rF2. That said, I've seen some really good mods, and some really bad mods, which leads me on to...
    4. The illegal ripping now seems to have migrated from rFactor1 to Assetto Corsa. The likes of Balanesko(SimDream/AssettoCarMods) or ASPEC who used shamelessly rip and sell other modders work, are now doing exactly the same in AC. The userbase in AC is bigger, younger, and less experienced in modding, so I'm guessing they are making good money from it, due to people not knowing who they are, and what they are doing.
    5. The lack of criticism/censorship of all sims is really hurting the industry I feel. I know some disagree with this. Some sims are worse than others for censorship. Luckily for us, S397 are quite open and honest about development and progress, and seem to be the most active in trying to help the community and resolve issues. But others are disgraceful quite frankly, and now PRC is gone, there is nowhere that tells things as they really are.


    What can S397 do to boost modding in rFactor2 today?
    1. An optimum material database of all materials which work well in their cars - metal, chrome, plastic, leather, glass, paint etc. If there was a database of generic materials it would make life so much easier. Which leads on to...
    2. An optimum shader database, or at least an optimum shader list with the settings in which they work the best for rF2.
    3. An expanded tyre database to include more sizes and types of tyres for all types of car/wheel. Slicks, wets, semi slicks, road tyres - each of these in 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 with various widths.
    4. A more detailed documentation on adding things like tyre flex, chassis flex, rain effects - these are the things that make rF2 stand out from crowd yet it's very difficult to get these things working. Michael Borda's dev blog seems to have dried up.
    5. A few more cars opened up in dev mode so modders can pick them apart and see how they work. 50% of my modding is done by reverse engineering. Yet with only one example at an extreme end of the spectrum it's difficult to do.
    6. A better error handler for when you get things wrong with physics files. Recently I've had numerous CTD with no error messages or logs in the trace files.
    6. Finally a paid service to implement working wipers and rain drops on windows of modders cars! ;)
     
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  8. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I have barely scratched the surface of rF2 modding yet. But appart of some uncomfortable things, working with rF2 doesn't seem that much hugely more difficult than with AC, especially if you take out things that are not existing in AC... There are things that are most certainly easier and better going in rF2 than in AC, but overall it is true that AC is easier to mod on.

    Some my thoughts on boosting up modding for rF2. This is no suggestions forum, but anyway....

    1. A lot of modders use Blender. So better blender support, or support Traveler who already did great work on creating rF plugin for Blender.
    2. Further development of gJed. As someone who is coming from AC modding I got used to exporting .fbx files, and then editing scene with specially designed application.
    3. Perhaps somehow merging devmode with main game. I have no clue about whats going on there, but surely it would make things less complex, if simply main game could gave a development mode, without working almost like separate game with several differences.
    4. A little bit better compiled material for modding, perhaps some sort of modding wiki, that everyone could edit (of course with trusty admin accepting edits).
    5. Easier to use and more functional photo mode, so modders could selfishly post more beautiful and creative images of their work to shamelessly get more attention and in the meantime observe models in better way.

    But there are many things that are more important than more content. Improving graphics, establishing proper online racing base, improving some physics, perhaps improving sound, improving AI.... lots of stuff is more important than just having more content to launch into game. Surely everyone want more content... but I would also not take modding for granted, the ratio between modded and official content will only shrink in the future, because on how much more demanding the process gets together with increasing expectations.
     
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  9. GeraArg

    GeraArg Registered

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    [​IMG]


    The only thing the modder community has to accept is that other people acting in good faith modify the work they did, either by adding new elements, fixing bugs or making a fork and creating new content based on what you did.
    This works very well, literally without the free software we would not be writing messages in a forum like this.
    Even Microsoft itself today is one of the companies that most contributes to the world of free software. :p
    Put this situation, Enduracers brings out a new version of Flat6, I not part of the team but I could have sent the skins of the "Flat-6" series in Argentina and the final product included that, the only thing they would have to put quality parameters for the skins to meet the requirements to be included and have a consistent quality mod.. Anyone lose something or all win?
    Or a guy who need to know how works the animations in the tracks, they only see a track with that feature, copy, improve the animation with adding new elements or complexity, and then come other modder and do the same thing, it is a spiral of continuous improvement.

    ;)
     
  10. DaVeX

    DaVeX Registered

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    I am not a modder but why you guys don't give a look to DCS and Arma3 modding scene?
    I mean, they release full DLCs (some free and some not) with complete content (set of planes + maps or soldiers + scenarios) and even if pricey worth the costs due the high quality standards!
    So even if I agree with the author about the idea to revive the modding scene what I think is lacking (as user) is the common "main goal". Working all togheter on the same project, where everyone can help no matter the skills and everyone can learn from the others (look to AC Shader Pack or SimHub projects, their discord is a good example of cooperation).
    Just my 2 cents of course..
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
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  11. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Actually.. Why this forum is wrong for you? There is everything that you need to do these things. Well except leech in and start doing unethical modifications.
     
  12. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    This is my field.
    I make vector based logos all the time. In fact 90% of car liveries I do now use vector textures.
    Current work;
    Every thing you see on this example is vector, including the colored pattern on the roof.
    upload_2019-5-25_9-10-31.png

    As a painter the biggest issue I find is bad or poor model mapping. Straight lines that are not! parts that are removed from areas that in most cases could have stayed in situ. (Were they belong) I could show you many example off bad mapping just on the S397 cars that we paid for.

    Textures data base;
    Great idea in theory but for me personally it wouldn't work for 2 reasons.
    1. I use PaintShopPro. My vector based texture are not compatible to any Photoshop versions. And visa versa. Most use Photoshop. Some use Gimp. Not sure whether Gimp can use PSP vector format or not.
    2.. I use real vector based textures. Not eps format that most see as vector but in reality is only as good as it's original format size. Placed on the template is no better than a Raster single layer that will blur if rotated, stretched or changed in any way to fit a specific livery design were a true vector will not.
    So for me a may be useful to find hard to get logos specifically European and/or Japanese logos for me in my part off the world. Google search stays specific to your region for the most part and is sometimes hard to get logos.
    A option I use is to build a vector logo off a picture from the car itself. I've had to resort to this method a number off times over the years.

    My work Examples;
    You can find at RD under D.Painter for both rFactor2 and Asetto Corsa.
    Plus I have done around 64 cars that are current in the Enduracer's Endurance racing mod.
    A great number off my liveries where in The Pits NAGT mod for rFactor, Plus in the ORSM V8Supercars mod that includes liveries from 2004 season through to 2012 which included round variance meaning a completely different livery in a lot off cases.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
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  13. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    No one will argue with you on any off these points but they are all areas that mod teams have no real control over anyway.
    If it was the case where we had more teams working outside or in conjunction with S397 they may find more time to better develop and test these areas.
    We've only recently seen a example off what the lack of testing, scrutinizing work before it's release can do.
     
  14. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    There are those who think they are some kind off genius and build a complete high quality car mod all by themselves!

    Build the 3D model.
    Map it, Well. (rare in my opinion)
    Texture it. A completely different skill set to 3D modeling.
    Liveries. To a point a different skill set to texturing 3D model parts. (Yes I've done both and going from just liveries to texturing was a real learning curve.)
    Physics; Out off my skill set.
    Tyres; Flex chassis; Suspension geometry and so on.
    In game features;
    Animation modeling and implementing.

    Modding cars are a team thing only. One person alone will not, does not have all the skills needed to do a reasonable quality job, let alone a high quality one.

    It's a hard thing to get a bunch off people to come together on working toward a common goal. Race series; Car models; Year of mod.
    Then there's those that have their head so firmly shoved up their own but, they only hear and see their own shit! Mostly applies to 3D model and Physics people from my experience.
    Tends to split mod teams up more often than anything else.
    This is why some think they can do it on their own. Dreamers in my opinion. There's not one mod out there done by one person that is any good.
     
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  15. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    Well guy's, this is disappointing!
    I was hope for a lot more conversation on this. I think there are a lot of people out there that have the talent to work on mods but don't get the opportunity.

    Personally I've been lucky over the years. Working in teams with some very talented people I've learnt a great deal from. Realistically it doesn't matter how good you think you are, when your in a team who critique you, you do improve a great deal as long as you listen and take notice and not just get your back up.
    True, I've met some people that just can't take any criticism what so ever. These are people you just "don't" want to work with at all!

    When I first started doing skins (liveries) just for a LAN league I was involved with there was a few guy's that worked on mods who I looked up to and tried to get as good as them.
    Today, I'm as good if not better than any off them. I would hope that someone one day will be able to say the same about me. I personally don't mind being told I got it wrong. Just be damn sure your right first! Haha......

    Anyway, Let's keep the convo going. Love to hear what your thoughts are as I'm sure the OP is as well.
     
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  16. Bowerpower

    Bowerpower Registered

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    I mean what would you like to do? get a modding crew? I worked briefly for a rfactor 2 modding team but left due to tons off disagreements.. By the end of the day everyone wants their own thing.. I joined and helped some to get started with a fia gt 97-99 mod for ams (they wanted to later on port it and learn how to work with rf2 but im most likley not gonna be around when that happends).. You have to start with asking people what are their intressts and what could make the effort a join cause.. I mean if you gonna go with a big mod team to last for ages and diffent mods you need a good relationship.. To start with is just to see who intressted to partner up and do something togheter what you like.
    Im a 3d modeler myself according to vivemclarens sheet of level 2-4
    Im intressted in 90s content.. 90 prototypes and gt1 cars.. I dont like one of races and i prefare a more championship oriented effort..
    Personnaly fia gt 97-99 was the coolest thing i know in terms of 90s racing but group c aint bad either. I wouldnt say im to hard to work with but i can easly change oppionion and mind if im unhappy with the progress.. Also im mostly botherd if things are properly organized (theres good planing and someone who can bring the car ingame certaintly.) Then as a 3d modeler i work efficently if its cars i personally like... A short introduction of me.. i would gladly donate some models inve made for the fia gt ams mod if its free and good enough... otherwise if theres any great intresst i would gladly welcome people to the ams fia gt 97 -99 w.i.p mod.. Butif you want to partner up with people.. Just drop a idea what you want to do.. Its yet unclear what vicemclaren wants but he kinda wants to have modders abit better. more open. togheter and organized collaboration i assume.. I wouldnt mind donate the models ive done sofar.. Theres some i cant but i have done and completed almost a 964 cup car if thats for anyones intressted
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
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  17. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    I am not really a rF2 modder, though I have a skin for the Radical in the game and played around with gJED when it was a thing and quite enjoyed it. Fact is, I am still busy enough with modding other games and I am not really ready to move on. When you dedicate yourself to modding, it needs to be like a 100% job and not some halfhearted thing. Don't get me wrong, I still see it as a hobby, but when I do it I try to do it right. In that regard I have not alot of substantial content to share here, when it comes to rF2. But I got a few thoughts to share:

    Coming from a completely different modding scene, I see what vivemclaren is trying to achieve and it worked for some of the biggest moding teams on moddb. I am not sure, if you guys know the BF2 mod Project Reality, a mod that laid the ground for Squad on UE4 and won the Mod of the year award and offering content for ArmA III aswell. The interesting point is, that they are part of Blacksand Studios, a collective of BF2 modding teams, that share assets and content, so that different content creators can use them whenever they want/need to, if it is a skin, a map and weapon or even an animation. Needless to say that BF modding was a beast on it's own and still is, so it shows that something like a content repository can help alot to get things going and drive things forward even for ten year old games. I am part of FH2, so not a small mod either and I have been lucky enough to work with very professional and talented people from DICE, WarGaming or Rising Storm/Tripwire Interactive and the likes, despite just being a little wheel in the big machine and having no idea what I was/(am) doing :D. And it has been a great experience to learn all the stuff I've learned, not just from a technical standpoint but everything else that comes with modding - sharing interests, social interaction and even making RL friends - so I can just recommend everyone to get involved who has just the slightest urge to get into modding. Our team is not part of Blacksand Studios, but we trade assets once in a while, because our team has a different less open-source-minded approach. Everything that is created for the mod belongs to the mod and not to the individuals creating it and what happens to the content is judged in democratic ways.

    I personaly have a two-sided opinion on the open source-concept. I don't want to to create content so that people can go to the shelf and take it whenever they feel like it. We discovered few years ago that a Chinese team took our content and created their own F2P title with it, trying to make money with it. That was not so nice obviously and beyond anything that I consider moraly correct. But I am also fine when people ask if they can use a level or whatever that I created. What I am trying to show is, that there are big chances while following vivemclarens approach, but a few things that you have to keep in mind. Knowing both ways, I know that different ways can lead to one goal. Now the hard part is finding a common goal while overcomming differences in interests/opinions (and I have been through alot of those).

    In that regard: @Bowerpower the apex modding team is working on their 99 Le Mans mod. Not sure if you are involved allready, but it would be a good start for you.
     
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  18. Bowerpower

    Bowerpower Registered

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    @hitm4k3r i worked breifly with a rf2 team till i formed soemthing own with a guys in a discord league. I do not work or am involved in apex modding team mods. But thanks for your proposal also note im not intressted in one of races projects..
     
  19. fab06

    fab06 Registered

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    no ..
     
  20. vivemclaren

    vivemclaren Registered

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    I will reply to the different peoples here tomorrow. Some very busy weeks is behind me now!
     

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