If you watch the reaction video's of people trying the oculus rift with the roller coaster demo some of them talk about feeling phantom g forces because there brain seems to think they are actually on a roller coaster. This may be useful for sim racers.
Interesting if it would also have positive implications for wheels like the T500 and CSW. Also, a bit OT but would love to see a sticky thread that involved Leo and ISI discussing his new wheel and best settings/integration within rF2. Not sure that I would fork out $4K for a wheel but knowing that it works well with rF2 wouldn't hurt.
I wouldn't say you don't get any feedback from the wheel in real life. You definitely don't rely on it as much as you do in a sim, but it is there and you do uses that feedback. As LesiU said, most of the forces on the wheel (in real life) are masked by power steering, but even then you can still feel it in the wheel. Have you ever watched videos of people drift racing? That will give you an exaggerated look at how a wheel reacts as a car slides. Drifters will totally remove their hands from the wheel and let it self center into a slide and and then grab the wheel and make small corrections to maintain the slide.
For those who haven't or don't want to read Leo's full white paper (it actually isn't long), it essentially talks about how in a real car the position of the steering wheel is dictated entirely by the steered angle of the front wheels, whereas in sims it is exactly the opposite. He talks about why this is a critical difference, and I understand his point, but when I look at the FFB in rF2 even on a T500, and imagine it on his wheel, I'm not sure it would make that much difference in most instances. As for realistic FFB vs enhanced, the FFB in rF2 does not seem enhanced in any way to me. I believe it's been said that it's driven directly by steering rack forces, just as RealFeel and LeoFFB were. The difference in rF2 is that it's running at a much higher frequency (500Hz?) and, perhaps more importantly, the tires themselves are what actually transmit the forces into the steering rack in the first place. So with a more accurate tire model you get more accurate forces through the wheel. If someone honestly thinks that a real racecar has nearly dead steering and you get nearly all the feedback through the seat of your pants, I'd encourage you to just go to a proper (outdoor) karting track and see what that's like. A Skip Barber car isn't much different in my experience, and there's no reason to believe that more serious machinery would be much less communicative.
The forces come from the steering arms which then go through a filter to remove spikes which is then sent through the FFB multiplier (which most people crank WAY to high). So if there is any room for improvement it would come from the physics related to the suspension's impact on the steering arms. I guess one improvement they could make would be some sort of power steering simulation but you can effectively do that now by reducing the FFB multi.
You are absolutely right in the last sentence. I think tire model is a big difference. However, including the rack physics with the correct settings is a great advance. Configuring reelfeel and leo was not straightforward at all. I cannot thank enough to ZeosPantera for his post regarding ffb configuration for rf1. Until that point I just couldnt enjoy rf1. Rf2 avoids all this so the imrpovement is huge for lots of users. I must disagree with you in this and congratulate ISI. Enviado desde mi GT-I9505 usando Tapatalk 2
For the record, LeoFFB wasn't tied directly to the steering arm forces. It was tied to the tire grip levels with lots of fudging. RealFeel was Chris Hoyle's (AKA, Kangaloosh. The creator of Carfactory and rFactor Pro) idea which became a joint effort between Chris and TechAde. It was a very quick and dirty project which worked perfectly and is so incredibly simple.
There was really only one setting you had to mess with in RealFeel which was the the max steering arm force so it knew how to scale the forces properly. It was kind of a pain to have to log a few laps with MoTeC to find the max force but at least it was a scientific method without any guess work or repeated tests with this change and that change. TechAde had thrown around the idea of implementing a self calibration so you never had to mess with any settings at all but that never surfaced. I wish he would just release the source for someone else to pick up and add this sort of stuff.
Ah ok, interesting. It seems most people think the combination of the two yields the best experience, as in GSC.
I know ISI said they were changing the FFB so it was more influenced by the steering arms, in 'the same way as' Realfeel etc, but I certainly believe there is a bit more on top of it. And there has to be, IMO, to compensate for the lack of other feeling as others have described. You can drive a normal family car around a medium bend and feel the back end step out very very slightly over a sharp bump (no 'sliding', no tyre squealing) and there's no way you feel any of that through the wheel. In rF2 when you lose the rear end the wheel pushes into the slide very early (but as Noel says, some people run the FFB multiplier too high so the wheel can't push any harder than it already is, which removes that effect) in a way that can't be explained by suspension geometry or tyre reaction. I guess ISI could go back to raw steering arm force as an option, but then you're relying on mod makers to keep designing proper geometry and raising the possibility of elitists claiming the original FFB is an aid. Realfeel would feel different to the rF2 FFB (we can't test it, because the FFB function in the telemetry interface doesn't work).
And what about the other values? Didnt they have any effect? I am not checking but I remember some damping values as well among others. I mixed it with leo to get a nicer feeling in the rumbles. Considering all the values to be edited within controller.ini, realfeel.ini and leoffb.ini and profiler, the number of combinations is huge. There were lots of threads with different configurations to be downloaded for each mod. For me it was not straightforward and now pretty much it is. Enviado desde mi GT-I9505 usando Tapatalk 2
Thank you. This is the jist of what I was trying to say earlier, though admittedly it came out sounding kinda stupid. I'll not further elaborate though, I'll let you do the talking as obviously you can explain that idea much better than I can.
I totally disable all the canned stuff that was included in rF1 and run just RealFeel. There are other settings but only one is car dependant. One of the settings needs to be matched to a setting in the controller.ini (but the default in the controller.ini matches the setting in the RealFeelPlugin.ini) and the other is the filter which I always set to 0. There are some new low speed hacks in the most recent versions of RealFeel (starting with the version that came in GSC) taken from the Leo plugin but they only impact you when stationary and pit speeds. The only real setting to mess with is the max force.
I played around with a custom FFB plugin in rF1, using front tyre lateral force to generate the basic FFB with some additions from asymmetrical suspension position changes plus a faked "I'm starting to lose the rear end, push the wheel into the slide a bit" effect not too dissimilar to what is now in rF2. Problem is that sort of thing is open to a bit of manipulation and could easily be seen as approaching the realms of a driving aid, which makes me wonder if that's part of the reason rF2 won't take replacement FFB from a plugin. Nothing's been said though, as far as I've seen. Using the lateral tyre forces took away the whole steering arm polarity issue, and made it easier to use a single scale. Doesn't reflect at all on the geometry obviously, so I'm sure the purists wouldn't like that approach.
I agree with your post to a degree, being that yes , in a drift car the driver does let the wheel go and it does spin back to centre the car but al the " slip" control is done with the throttle, if the driver wants more slip or slide, he inputs more throttle and less if he doesn't want as much slip or slide, this he feels through the car, not the wheel. The wheel is used for directional control, any forces he feels would be weight on the wheel as it changes direction, he won't feel slip through the wheel itself. Another way is to do a burnout, lock the front brakes, let go of the wheel and do a burn out, if the car is capable lol, you feel the tyres slipping and loss of traction but this is from the throttle and seat for want of a better description, not the wheel.
Lazza, I am about 100% sure that rf2's FFB is directly connected to the steering arms and have read quotes from one of the devs basically confirming this but I will see if I can get more confirmation. I personally haven't noticed it predicting oversteer as you are describing. I think this predictive feeling is due to a more forgiving tire model at the limit.
all depends on the car you drive.. you compare it to a Toyota Camry well yeah there aint much to enjoy or feel, but you drive a Caterham 7 or similar such car then you get feedback from your wheel to your a*se and everything in between
I agree. and best steering wheel for replicate real car and real sensation for me is a steering wheel without ffb but with a system of return to center adjustable.
