OMG Marc, I had not realized ISI stated that they will not be doing anything about this for a few years. that is shocking news!
I remember a while back forum member Mrslrv posting a vid of a tidy ui in rf2, looked quite good i thought dont know what come of it though.
Agreed. The UI is an area which really needs reworking. Is the UI something which is easily modable? I haven't checked the internals of RF2...
Is it a massive undertaking to create a clean, modern, user-friendly AI? Genuine question. Clearly it's not a priority for ISI, but creating a good first impression with new users is vital I would say. Not everyone trying rF2 is from a hardcore sim racing background and will be as forgiving as us.
I was purely stating a "what if" scenario, ISI have pretty much said nothing other than it's low priority.
It's not about the look of the UI, it's about the best "work flow". Talking about the design you can discuss it for years and still disagree about the colors. A.C. design is modern conservative. Nothing new really. But the usability is intuitive. I was within minutes on the track with all settings pretty spot on. In rF2 there is lot more to do before you are on the track and even then it's still not right. Wheel settings, HDR, GFX options, the track is green, no clouds at all and so on.... It's about presenting the game in its best conditions without having a master degree in rF2. Of course it's not important as the simulation itself and all the features but why should ISI not present the sim as good as it actually is? There is no reason to draw borders and say we want just this kind of user when it simply could appeal all racers when properly done. The UI is after all the features the most important thing. It could also be really much easier even for the experienced user. Just saying blind no let it be as it is makes no sense. As far as I know it is going something to happen with the UI so why shouldn't I make some suggestions what I think could be done better.
I just deleted it and have done a second one but it's not really release ready. It suits just my needs but it's not complete either.
I pretty much agree with the OP. There's definitely work needed on the UI and whole User Experience with rF2 before it get released into the wild. I don't mind the look of the UI. It's quite clean and simple. It provides two ways of looking at and choosing cars and tracks, and it's quite well organized and labelled. There were some inconsistencies in earlier builds but those have been fixed. The problem I have with it, is that it is incomplete. Users should never have to go to the player file to set up the game. All that should be available from the UI, including a simple way for users to create vmods. Assetto Corsa's UI is very minimalistic -- to the point where it starts to become mystery navigation. I'd also like to see some sort of built-in tutorial system or teaching mode that would guide new users through setting up a single or multiplayer race, creating a vmld, making basic garage adjustments, etc. I can't think of many sims in other genres that don't have something like that (and some of those were made by small companies too). I understand what Tim is saying about priorities. At the same time, I hope ISI takes threads like this into consideration as rF2 gets closer to release ready.
This ^^ It doesn't matter, that AC's UI looks like arcade, because it is well aranged and physics is on high level. Physics matters. Tim, in this state I seriously think, it should be one of top priorites. Competition is strong and with release of AC you can lose many customers just because of UI. I can tell it for myself - I do like rF2's physics a lot and I play it a lot, but if the UI will stay the same at the moment of AC release, I will go for AC immediately. And I think I am not alone with this attitude. Physics is on similar level, so other "cosmetic" features matter more than ever. PS: I wonder how many people requested a refund just because they couldn't or didn't want to fiddle with all the settings and vmods. With new mod manager it is little better, but still far from user friendly. I recommend to develop another installer with all ISI mods installed, so user can download ONE package, install it and enjoy all ISI content. I mention it, because I was very demotivated last time when I wanted to make a clean rF2 installation with ISI content and few other mods, just because of this complicated system. PS2: this is not a hate post, it is meant as friendly advice.
Gotha, have you looked at other sims in the past when it comes to mods? You have to know the directory structure in order to place mods, or you have to know how to edit all kinds of files in order to get them into the sim. At least with rF2 all you have to do is drop mods in the packages folder and then go to the mod manager to install them. This means fewer issues with conflicts between mods, but because of the way the mods started to be created, there are older mods out there now that have track or car dependencies, so those need to be updated. The issue with having all the tracks and mods in 1 download is that the file you have to download is huge and there are some that have bandwidth limits or max Gb limits who might not be able to download it then. As far as the UI is concerned, yes it would be nice if you could make all the necessary adjustments from within the UI, but then you will be complaining that the UI is too cluttered and has too much that you have to mess with. The settings in the .plr file really are there for those to whom the default values of some things won't work. As an example, there is no real reason to have the seat angle adjustment in the UI because most drivers won't adjust it and if they do, they only adjust it once, so why clutter the UI? Second thing about the UI. You guys are comparing the UI to other sims and games and I for one would really rather have a nice looking functional UI over one that tries to do everything for me or lead me through specific steps that I may not want to follow. I can setup a car for the track fine with the current UI and have been for a few years now in other games as well. Should this be made simpler? I think not because the real setup on a real car is just as tough to figure out on a track by track basis and let's face it, we are trying for realism are we not? If I wanted a sim that all I had to do was setup the controller and get out on the track and drive, I would get an arcade game.
I'll comment about this but it is appropriate for the entire thread... It is IMPOSSIBLE to make a UI that everyone likes. It is exceptionally hard to make a UI that most people like. This is because people have different tastes and tolerances for what is good. I worked with a fully color blind person once, and his screen colors were HORRIBLE, but he just picked things for contrast and didn't care that I thought a bright green background and purple forground were bad... It is also hard to notice flaws in a UI that you have been working on for a long time. Things that seem perfectly logical and easy to you, because they work the way you expect and have gotten used to while developing them, are illogical and un-easy for other people... RF2 is a fairly complicated game, and it's going to have a fairly complicated UI... Sure, there are places to improve it, but it's going to take time to do that and there will be at least one person that says they liked the original design better even if almost everyone else likes the new design. Maybe posting specifics issues would help... For example, I think there needs to be more documentation on the graphics settings.. Do I use AA and what level? Should I set AA level to 0 and use the other settings instead. Should I be looking at buying multilple SLI cards if I want to do 3 monitors or should I upgrade to a super fast single card, etc... The mod manager is better now, the first cut was pretty hard to figure out. The new one inherited some of the things I didn't like about the original (I'm not clear on why I want to filter on component, mods or ?). Anyway.. I took your question seriously and hope this was a reasonable answer.
Big +1 Gearjammer. I don`t think the UI in rf2 is that bad or difficult to work out personally... Granted, when I first got rf2 I had some stressful moments working things out but I also got some really helpful and good advice from buddhatree (where is he these days? I miss his input on things... ) that did help a lot. Because of that I didn`t really have many questions about "getting going". I`m not saying things don`t need work, after all, rf2 is a wip and maybe the UI could be better but I don`t think it`s as difficult as some seem to find it to use and I agree with Gearjammer when he says he`d like a functional UI rather than one that leads me through everything in an arcade sort of fashion. The vmod thing was/is a bit messy but as I say, this is all wip and I believe things will come the way we`d like. Imo...
Intuitive design has nothing to do with arcade, I just don't get it why people think that. Intuitive design is more or less invisible. If it is really good you won't hear a word about it. If a user can do his tasks without interruption you have won. For example every single redundant click has to disappear. The main menu should always be available. There is no need to click back and then race. Repeating this task with several options and always clicking back again you get redundant tasks. The GFX settings should also be sliders so that you can see the available range without clicking on it several times. These things are not visible if they are properly done but they improve the user experience. A walk through for the first time is just once there and after that you just forget that it even existed. There is lot more and I will try to write something down when I am on my PC. Writing on a mobile device is PITA for me.
I don't get the arcade comments, the ui for this sim can be made to be a pick up and race style alongside a more detailed approach for those that want it. Again Kunos have got it right judging by the tech demo ui, sure we have to wait until the final version but it's already leaps ahead of rf2s which is barely an improvement over rf1.
Exactly! This forum seems to use the word arcade alot, people need to move on and get with the times. Being hard to use and plain frustrating does not make something a simulation. To be a simulation doesn't mean you have to be ugly and uneasy on the eye. Look at ARMA3, i have played these games from the first one. Possibly the most hardcore military series out there open to the general public and look what they are doing now with ARMA3. They are moving with the times, they have made the sim far more approachable and easier to pick up for joe public this time. The game itself is shaping up to be the best in the series and so being more approachable has not hurt the sim. Regarding UI, AC has it nailed perfectly. Being clean, easy and intuitive does not make things arcade...LOL. Being cluttered and crazy like rF2 however does make things unappealing for first timers. Look at Reiza as an example aswell and what they did with the Formula Truck UI, clean and easy to navigate and gives a far nicer first impression. People need to realise that not everyone who purchases rF2 would have used any rFactor based software before and so the UI and it's workings will be alien to them. As rF2 improves graphically, it then becomes more appealing to non sim heads and more people will try the sim. Having a slick menu and UI can do alot for first impressions. just LOL at arcade and arcade kind of fashion stuff.
First off I used arcade as a word to describe what I`ve come across with other titles... if that gives you guys a "lol" then fine. I also want something that`s going to be slick and easy to use but I really don`t get all this stuff about the UI we have present being so difficult. Yes it`s messy, yes it needs work (that I`m sure it`ll get) yes to all those things and probably some more too but if your telling me that it`s soooooo difficult to use then we must be using different UI`s because I just don`t agree with that at all. As I say, improvements are needed but to make out it`s much more difficult than it actually is, (imo) is just not correct (again, imo) I also think that ISI will give us more or less what we want... when? I can`t answer that but I do have faith in ISI to deliver. Oh yeh, one other thing too... rf2 is a wip, as we all know, so I don`t get all this frustration at this or that not being done or being done poorly... It`ll get there and if it doesn`t there are plenty around here that tell ISI I`m sure.
Tjc once you have the knowledge nothing is difficult anymore really. It is really really hard to design an intuitive UI. People earn their money with that and still fail. It is really obvious that new users have troubles with rF2. There is no question that rF2 is awesome with its features but those features can also lead to frustration if not used as they should be or presented. There are arcade games with bad UIs and good ones. This has nothing to do with the software itself. Every kind of software has a UI nowadays. Most likely you will be frustrated first time using the new UI of rF2 if they make drastic changes because you loose your knowledge if not done properly again. You said yourself you got help when starting with rF2, you just can't expect that from everybody. The times are changing and this can't be ignored. A few years ago users accepted 9s loading times for a website. Nowadays people would just change the browser or stop to visit the website because it's unacceptable. Look at Linux for example. There is a reason why it still isn't that popular as it should be even being for free with a bunch of awesome free software and being a powerful OS also. 10 years ago you had to write text files to get a internet connection. Of course that changed because they are improving to but it still is not on the OS X level even if the OS itself is not that much different. It's the UI! There are also some other reasons but the UI is important. How comes the Android system is that popular even if it is Linux based? A 6 year old kid is able to use it within minutes. Don't we all want rF2 to be more popular, the online serves to be full, always a pickup race there available, full grids in leagues? A proper intuitive UI would be a big step in this direction IMO.
