Nothing Tony's said here supports that. And he's said something similar on the iRacing forums about being a fan of 'sim racing' and not just iRacing.
Did you even read his post? Between the op and you I can spot the fan boy loser and I had to read past the first page to find him.
Tony is definitely legit, not a troll. He is a sim-racer. @Old Hat & Lazza: I see now what you mean and yes, I agree with you completely. However, FFB+Sounds+Subtle movements of the cockpit is definitely enough to give us clues about how the car is handling. Especially slower cars. Once we get to Formula type cars, then I'm not so sure. Those can have nasty snap spins in real life and I guess it'll be pretty damn hard to correctly anticipate those in a simulator. Basically the more subtle cues (I said SUBTLE!! I'm looking at you Shift/Shift2 and some mods) we get the more we can learn to anticipate the car handling. It will never be completely intuitive as it might be in real life but our brains are highly adaptive and can learn a lot to get a proper "gut" instinct in simulations. Cheers! bManic
Well, more time to react anyway. I can actually see a counter argument to some extent (and for the sake of being argumentative ). High down force cars have enough grip to floor it more often, whereas slower cars need more delicate throttle control through most bends, as well as general 'juggling' of inputs in turns. Which is why I think they're more fun in sims. One can imagine a real F1 car is invigorating around fast sweeping bends e.g. Spa, Silverstone, because of the physical sensations from the forces (assuming you're neck isn't giving out). After all, that's why people like rollercoasters. But in a sim, I don't see the appeal so much of the 'point and squirt' high downforce fast cars. But I've not done a lot of them so I could be missing something. Sound cues are an example where you need lack of realism in a sim. Unrealistically loud and descriptive tyre noises tell you where you are on the tyre curve. In RL, crash helmets apparently muffle high frequencies so the driver doesn't hear a lot of the tyre noise. (Which, BTW, doesn't explain the crap iRacing engine sounds as some argue it does, because they're as bad (synthetic), externally too).
Actually it is a CRAZY busy forums and I might do the same. My one sim racing friend with iRacing has gotten so many deals on used hardware from those crazy rich bastards who upgrade constantly. Plus the troll in me wishes to argue with the natives. Not enough full out yelling in civilized forums like this.
Hey Denzer! I resubbed to see the "revolution in simracing". Yeah and I found out for myself that it was marketing hype. I wasn't going to be able to find that out by watching biased sim racing t.v as they basically work for iR or by reading the fanboy comments on virtualr. Don't worry dude, I'll be letting my sub run out. I know you're a fanboy, a crappy one at that...lol. Your rating is pretty pathetic considering how long you've been on iR. Anyways, open your small brain and shut your mouth sometimes buddy. P.S the hardware section of the forums is definately the BEST section. Some good stuff on there.
I guess I would rather be a satisfied fanboy (and actually Im not) than a whiny ass little baby jumping in every thread I can in an attempt to change everybody's mind. Kind of like a heart broke teenage boy trying to convince everybody that the girl who broke his heart is just slut when he actually still loves her. Yes,yes my iRating is pathetic but I have never been that fast of a sim racer and you know what....I dont care LMAO its a video game.
Irating= It does not matter how low or high it is, you race against people who are same level as you. Not always, but that's the idea.
It's a video game? Damn you can say that again. The new tire model that Dave K put out is horrible. Tire pressures dont' mean a damn thing. Still no flat spot and still no penality for over driving the car and being a stab and steer driver. Dave K.s head has gotten too big for his helmut. Fact is he hasn't put out anything new since nr2003. On the other part I really don't understand your parallel Denzer as I'm the one who is "breaking up" with iR not the other way around. Anyways you are a bit of a pea brain and there is no point in getting into an arguement with a keyboard warrior such as yourself. Good day fanboy.
Forum police on the iRacing forum frown on anything that might hurt someone's feeeelings, I was called out multiple times for upsetting people, and finally banned from posting for a month because some poor soul said I had been "disrespectful" to him, and had his feeeelings hurt. The final straw for me was after the forum police deleted over 400 of my posts, then had the general forums thread removed completely....the only topics allowed are racing/iracing related. Off limits topics... religion, politics, world events. Just a bit too PC for my taste.
The funny thing is a moron like Towler or Cornett can post whatever they feel like but everybody else has to follow their rules. That forum is way too over moderated and biased.
CdnRacer, why all the vitriol? It's kind of ironic that you keep mentioning the word fanboy and other derogatives and yet you are completely oblivious to your own behavior? Can we at least try to be a bit mature here? I found Dave's post quite interesting and it made me even more skeptical of the NTM. I think he has probably bitten a too large bite to chew. It's too complex, too ambitious and the paying customers are suffering due to this. I do understand WHY he has done what he has.. imagine having an universal model that only needs a few simple parameters input to recreate any imaginable tire possible. It's kind of the holy grail of a complex dynamic model but at the same time these kind of models are very fragile and hard to maintain (always output something weird at certain conditions). It's kind of like developing a physically modeled acoustic instrument algorithm. Some of the simpler ones "work" ok on paper but still our ears can detect all the wrong things in the clinical sound. To get closer to reality the complexity of the model rises exponentially and it starts to be really hard to keep it all together. A few wrong constants or inconsistencies in the model make it "blow up" and become useless. We'll see.. only time will tell if it'll ever work properly. Cheers!
I agree with you that Dave K.s idea of a new tire model is way too ambitious and complex. It doesn't have to be that way either. Like I said before his helmut is getting way too tight. Actually I dont' think it even fits anymore. I really don't understand why he doesn't use real world data from a tire manufacturer. I'm pretty sure iracing can afford to purchase some data. Does he actually think that he knows more? Another thing which leads me to think that his head is huge is his low number of posts in that forum. Almost all of his posts have been in the last three days. I guess he's too high on the food chain to talk to his customers? It seems to me he doesn't like talking about the NTM as he is scared he will expose it's flaws but you have to be pretty dense to not see that. The sideways talk of the polymers and this and that really made me laugh. He was talking science of a tire but never actually talked about the tire model in iracing. That whole thread makes me wonder how iR have made it as far as they have. I guess it proves that money spent on advertising and marketing is a better investment than developement into a sim. Everybody bashes EA there but they isn't any difference.
I agree with you. I think the approach for a complete "physical model" of rubber/tire is too early and would much prefer a brush model or similar with real world data to make sure the output of the model is as correct as possible. I think Dave is just blinded by the possibilities a truly advanced physical model can give him. It's a lot of work at first but once it is up and running it's much easier to maintain than any other kind of model. All you need is a few measurements. In the music industry this same kind of "war" is going on. Sampling of a piano versus a physical model. We are now at the point where physical models are truly close to becoming reality and thus indistinguishable from the sampled counterpart. These models are still extremely complex and hard to manage. Sampling gives very satisfying results while being much simpler to create (still a lot of hard work during the actual sampling stage, which is completely avoided in a physical model). There are good arguments for both but because we are talking about a computer GAME (yeah, even a simulator is still a game in my opinion) which thousands of people play on barely acceptable hardware (for instance, myself, I have a basic Logitech DFGT) it is a bit of overkill to go for the holy-grail of a tire model at this point in time. Perhaps in the future when motion simulators or some advanced virtual reality devices become common in our homes, perhaps then it is more relevant. Or maybe Dave is counting on cashing in on the model in the future? Making a true, real-time, physical model can actually become a really significant cash cow when patented or licensed to car manufacturers. Who knows.. it's all my own speculation based on nothing really. Cheers!
This is something that has always interested me. As sims get more sophisticated there is a strong belief amongst hardcore sim racers that real data is the only thing that matters. Suggest anything different (e.g. exaggerated yaw) on pretty much any sim racing forum and be prepared to be in a minority. However, with their limited model sims have done a pretty good job of creating a seat of the pants type feel where you really feel a sensation that the car is moving underneath you and you find yourself "instinctively" driving. I am convinced there is some black art to it. I also believe we get tuned into a particular method of creating this sensation and that becomes convincing enough as driving a real car. My own sim racing background goes way back to Indy500 and I have run in leagues running both Papyrus and ISI based products for many years, racing with (a very young) Tim Wheatley in GPL back in 1999!
Possibly but I think a car manufacturer would probably beat him to something like that. A team of highly educated people are better than one smart dude who has read a few books. On a lighter note here is a video of a former NASCAR driver talking about racing sims/games.
