Which sim is best?

It's all opinion I guess. For me the FFB on the star mazda feels very dead and boring. I don't feel connected to the road at all like I do with the open wheelers, or actually all the cars in netkar pro. The FFB in the impalla cars aren't bad as I can feel the contours of the surface but I still don't get that "connected" feeling.

For me the best sim would be to take gtr2 and throw in netkars physics, tire model and FFB and add iRs damage model. That would be one bad ass sim.

 

Yeah, actually you're right; "connected" wasn't really the right word - it implies (I think) feeling lateral movement and carcass flexing with the tyre patch staying planted on the road, and I agree, still NKPro feels more so. It's got something to do with the time it takes to generate a slip angle I'm guessing, rather than that now you've got it (grip)... now you've not, effect familiar in sims. What I was trying to say was the car responding through lateral movement and ffb to the surface detail creates the feeling of being on the road rather than floating. NKPro still suffers from that ultra-smooth feeling which undermines immersion IMO.

I've heard real racers say (one recently in fact) that NKPro feels about right and iRacing is still too difficult. That does beg the question though: would driving a realistic tyre model without seat of the pants feel be as easy as NKPro? I doubt it, so it could be misleading. Or at least, do you want realistic physics, or a car that behaves more like a real car when driven in a sim? Someone needs to set up a system of server controls and a camera inside a real track car and drive it with a sim rig and report back.
And then everyone can argue about that too.

 

Well, I'm simply arguing that if NKPro feels about right difficulty-wise without seat of the pants feel to a real racer, then it's tyre model is probably too forgiving. You might think it's difficult, but unless you've done exactly the same thing in RL (same car), it might be hell of a lot more difficult notwithstanding the ways it'd easier e.g. seat of the pants, better visuals.

Realistic optimum lap times for an F1 car simulation make no sense when we're told the eyes should be the last thing to know it's coming loose. Which is one reason I like the old GTL cars, P&G etc.

As for modders/kids. The problem is we don't know, do we? I mean, you could be wearing a dress right now for all I know...like I am.

 

That is 100% correct!

 

There'll always be a disconnect between real-life and sim racing - well, until we have more feedback. I think that's what Old Hat is saying - if your feedback is visual, audio, and through the wheel, and overall it's as difficult to drive fast as the real life car, then something in the system is easier than real life; because in real life you have more feedback (seat-of-the-pants). If everything else were equal the real car would be easier to drive because of the extra feedback.

So if any sim/mod feels about as difficult overall as the real thing, without all the feedback a real driver gets, it must be easier (some might say compromised) in some area(s). Really that'll be true of any sim.

 

They are not so dis-similar.

This was the 2.21 version not 2.2a which is why the section by the old pits under the scaffold was different. The 2.2a version is dead on.

 

Here are some great vids of sim racers getting into real cars. I think that they are excellant because it doesn't advertise FVA at all and the interviews seem very honest.

 

One or two guys couldn't even put up a time as they could not complete a lap. Look at Huttu as well who puked all over himself when he was put into a real car.


I was in a race with max papis two weeks ago and he sucked. LOL. Now if we were to compete in a real car I know he'd kick my ass.

 

And that is why I want to design and build simulators. Because I guarantee I could get Huttu to puke in my simulator proving it is superior and more like the real thing!

Fear of death and dismemberment is a huge part of what is missing in today's modern simulators wouldn't you say?

 

Track grip has more to do with it then following the height changes. Even with perfect laser scanning the track maker has to implement a "Grip" value to the track surfaces. That mixed with the grip values on mod's tires mean a wide range of failure can occur.

 

"Look at Huttu as well who puked all over himself when he was put into a real car."

I don't think they were putting ice packs down his suit just to make him feel at home (he's Finnish). He was suffering from the heat of the day and also had flu and some fever coming on.

 

I'm pretty sure they are all there because it is a controlled environment without "stupid kids" wrecking the race. Also they get the best competition in iRacing because at the level they are racing (pro) everybody takes it very seriously. Heck, there's even REAL money involved. 25 000$ is a very good reason to do iRacing.

Personally I very highly doubt the authenticity of iRacing's physics. I always have doubted it ever since I subscribed to it 2 years ago. However, it does have BY FAR the best online racing experience. It's so ridiculously more fun racing online in iRacing than anywhere else that it's mind boggling.

You just have to read this very thread and see impatient kids who demand "shorter races!!! just 3 to 5 laps!!". Come on. I mean seriously, wtf? Why on earth are they even racing SIMULATORS then? There is exactly 0% realism in a 3 lap race with a typical GT or formula class car.

Luckily these people are almost completely absent in iRacing. You meet a few impatient kids in the rookies class but once you go beyond that, most of them have quit or learned to enjoy a full simulation experience (in this case meaning the online competition and rules part, NOT the physics).

I'm happy to pay a premium to get rid of the annoying wannabe sim-kiddies. That's actually what I was hoping Simraceway would become but alas.. it failed miserably.

 

This is such a fallacy. Have you actually read what the real racing drivers on the iRacing forum have been saying for years? The iRacing physics model is making the cars WAY TOO HARD to handle, bordering on being completely unrealistic (not to mention the completely unrealistic tire wear of the old model). There are some really interesting comments from that Dutch Corvette C6 GT driver who basically said, politely, just how wrong the iRacing physics are for the car. In real life the car is apparently extremely planted. You can basically floor the pedal and it'll stick. Loose the back end? No problem.. let go of the wheel and anticipate the oversteer.. boom! Fixed.

Same critique has been discussed on the NFS Shift/Shift2 forums (don't laugh, the physics engine in that game is damn capable, not to mention the tire model by Eero Piitulainen, the creator of Richard Burns Rally physics!). Ian Bell owns a Ferrari 458 Italia and obviously has a fair bit of experience with the car.. not to mention the other high-end car experiences that several of the SMS people have. Another interesting tidbit was from Henrik Roos (simbin), who is a real life GT1 driver. Apparently at the time of GTR2 release he was still complaining how the in-game cars were way too hard to drive and would slide all over the place. Ironically the original GTR fanboys thought GTR2 was rubbish because the handling was made easier. Duh!!! How stupid is that? Make the sim MORE realistic, it becomes easier to drive -> fanboys complain that it now must be more unrealistic.

Same thing happened with iRacing. New tire model.. suddenly the Skip Barber isn't sliding all over the place and is much more planted and thus easier to drive.

In short: Harder to drive does NOT equal more realistic. In fact, it seems to be the exact opposite.

EDIT: Note, that harder to drive does not mean that it is easier to drive FASTER. It just means you won't be spinning all the time due to unrealistic physics. Actually staying at the optimum slip angles and getting everything out of the car without exceeding the limit, probably gets tougher with the more realistic physics. It means that you get severely punished for over driving the car (as it should be!). Currently in iRacing there is no such punishment, which is why you can run so silly loose setups in the iracing cars and gradually "search" for the limit and where it goes beyond. In real life you can not do that.. you kill the tires.

 

What he said.

 

We're sort of dealing with 2 separate issues here; Old Hat's first point was that if the car feels 'right' in a sim, so that the 'overall difficulty' is the same as the real car (we're dealing with fuzzy, arbitrary stuff here... has to be extremely difficult to accurately make a comparison, but let's just look at it hypothetically) then some part of that sim has to be a departure from real life, unless you have all the same feedback. And while I do realise we substitute audio for some of the real life feedback LesiU, it doesn't do the entire job.

If you drive a normal family sedan over some bumps (nothing major) while turning gently at ~50km/h, without actually breaking traction, you can feel the back of the car step out very slightly (I'm not talking about under power or anything, just that moment where the front tyres are making contact with the road and the rears aren't). Even the overly-aggressive tyre sounds used in games won't tell you anything in that situation (because the tyres aren't actually sliding), and you'd have to be extremely, extremely alert to pick it up visually, but in a real car you can just feel it. Maybe with a well designed seat-movement system you could convey it in a sim, but for now at least most people don't have that option.

Of course that example doesn't really relate to a racing situation, but it illustrates where sims are inherently lacking compared to real life.

As for the other issue, that of sims being less stable or generally more difficult than they should be, because sim-nuts think harder = more realistic, there's no doubt that's true... and it's been happening for years. Unfortunately it tends to become polarising, so you end up with some people wanting more and more difficulty then others look at real life and say, hey, they're purpose-built racing cars, you almost never see them losing traction, we need more and more and more grip... so you end up with insanely difficult handling from one group and cars with way too much grip on the other.

The middle ground seems most correct, as you've described it bmanic, where real drivers aren't constantly on the limit because it'll have flow on effects (like killing the tyres), so while they're all racing they're also leaving a tiny bit in reserve unless they absolutely need to get every last hundredth at that moment. Sim racers just aim for the limit the whole time and most games/sims don't punish them. But, hopefully rF2 might be a further step in the right direction - albeit depending on the included content and then what mod-makers do.

It's usually not too hard to find some interesting figures in mods, like downforce that gives up more quickly at the rear than the front with yaw, or mods where it's impossible to hit optimum tyre pressures (based on dynamic load) while hitting the correct tyre temperatures - usually meaning the pressure is way off at low speeds and making the instability worse. I'm not knocking the excellent job mod-makers do, because it's a heck of a lot of work, but sometimes things are done because that's just how it's always done, sometimes starting with the ISI cars, and maybe if some of those things were adjusted the handling would improve - but you have to get past the protests from the nutters first because it's 'less realistic' when it's more forgiving...

 

Stop right there. I agree with what you're saying. Lazza seems to be the only one understanding what I'm trying to say - maybe listen to him instead.

Btw, Brian Beckman ('Physics of Racing' and worked on Forza tyres) actually said that sims visually exaggerate yaw angles in the cockpit view just to give us poor schmucks a chance of detecting what's happening without seat of the pants fee and catch slides. I repeat what an former F1 driver said: 'the eyes are the last thing to know'.

Where I said it might be 'a hell of a lot more difficult' (in real life), I was trying (badly) to point out that *an individual* e.g. not a real racing driver, might find it harder than they think to drive on the limit in RL. You can't just say, "it's easier because there's extra sensory information". Precisely because it's more about seat of the pants feel, it's actually a different activity. They might not be any good at that at all. I suspect though, some attributes e.g. timing, judgment of distance/speed, coordination, physical intelligence, whatever, my help in both.

But I agree completely that real race cars are designed to have loads of grip and be well behaved. So, yes of course, they don't behave in that slippery, snappy way most sims do when you lose traction.

But as I said, it raises a question: what should a dead accurate sim be like to drive without seat of the pants feel? And how much of the current difficulty is dodgy tyre models and how much is lack of seat of the pants information.