We need documentation

There are two separate things with modding. The model (car for example) in itself first require 3D modeler, texturer and sound designer. Those go outside of rF2 and the ground/base of them is similar for all gaming/sims. There is limits on 3D models and how detailed they should be for each sim/game. Textures might be handled a bit differently in each and sound is sometimes implemented differently. But on their own you still have to learn to do those to make a car (for example) and that means learning Blender/3ds MAX (3D modeling program), photoshop/gimp (texturing) and whatever sound mixing program you want to use to get/cut/mix sound samples.

When these are done, and believe me for a sim they can take quite a while if you want quality, then starts the next phase of getting them ready and into the sim. rF2 from my understanding is on the more complex side compared to for example Assetto Corsa (correct me if im wrong guys), but now starts the "documentation" you are after. How to implement that months of work outside of rF2 and get it into the sim.

For sure it would be awesome with detailed documentation. I started dabbling in 3D (Blender - its free and great) and got a bit on the way modelling. Almost got a car model done. This one i did Golf hillclimb. Really wanted it in a sim:

However when it came to putting all together like all moving parts setting up the hierarchy of the parts and creating physics files... That is way over my head and too complex for me, and even with documentation i dont think i would have the energy to learn it, lol (i admire those who do very much - thanks guys!). But im gonna keep dabbling in 3D because its fun. Even 3D modeling is an art form when it comes to get it nicely done for a game. How to cut corners and still have a good looking model. But you should start learning one of them that you feel comfortable with. Modding many times is a team effort. Someone is good at modeling, someone is good at sounds, someone is good at textures and someone is good at physics etc. Learning a couple or all and then make a full mod alone will take time if you are a beginner. Some do it faster than others though. Ive seen guys who just learned 3D modeling and after a couple of days making awesome models, lol. Im not that fast, but hey...

 

Wow....serious attitude problem you have. It takes time and effort to mod anything... but it seems all that work is just not good enough for you. You know, people spending their free time doing something they enjoy. Why bother eh? When they can't get it perfect and represent a real car/track to the millimeter without support from the manufacturer. Why bother making anything, it will just be "crap" right?

 

Looks is only part of the mod,most are

i was a bit pissed at that guys response to my post and let it get the better of me,I appreciate all that modders do,but you can't get away from the fact that only a few mods feel good to drive,they all look nice but many fall foul when it comes to handling.
Not wanting s397 to give proper docs to help modders reach a standard that's beneficial to rf2 is just stupid in my opinion.
Again I'm sorry that I came off like I was bashing all modders,there's some really great work out there,but not all are great,sorry if that offends you

 

So to all who says we don't need better documentations:
https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/convert-track-info-required.55735/

He already spent a whole day with no result.

 

Trial by error is a sign of failed concept. It is a failure of documentation that failed its job in conveying critical information, it is a failure of software because it makes things difficult that should be self evident, it is a failure of the whole process where things are made difficult on purpose thinking that it results in higher quality when in reality it reduces both quality and quantity.

It is no wonder 90% of rf2 mods is conversions because nobody knows how to make scratch made stuff because of lack of documentation. People simply prefer to take rf1 content because at least then you can pretend to know something when you can drop ripped model from rf1 into 3dsimed and press a button to get it into rf2. In reality you have learned nothing. You just copy something you don't understand hoping it will work.

 

You worded that better than I could,well said

 

The guy that @demerzel referred to is not really modding in the proper sense, all he is doing is converting a track with a third party tool that is typically used for ripping content from other games. Not sure how S397 could support that really. Actually with gJED you can now import from FBX to rF2 format directly, which means you can basically use any tool to build cars/tracks that support FBX, including 3ds Max and Blender. True, we need to support the guys better who builds things themselves, but these quick rF1 conversions I see no reason why S397 should support in any way, the tracks aren't even high density enough to feel playable with rF2.

 

Let me quote something for you: We've been doing a number of tests with gJED over the past few weeks, and our car and track teams decided to release one of their quick experiments. We figure that if we can get some of the original content into rF2 as quick as we did (a few hours), some of those better looking rF1 mods should get some serious consideration now within the community. gJED is perfect for this kind of thing.

http://isiforums.net/f/archive/index.php/t-26191.html

Apparently, 2 years later 3dsimed still kicking for some reason. And let's not forget that 3dsimed can export into FBX.

 

This idea that you have to prove that you already started working on a mod and are part of this amazing master race of determined and perseverant people who were not ruined by participation trophies and hard earn their right to ask questions is simple put retarded.

You want the game to be successful, popular and full of good quality content? You take steps to make that happen. Good documentation is a no brainer there.

What somebody has done or not is completely irrelevant to the fact that better documentation will result in more and better quality mods.

 

Nobody said more documentation is unnecessary or not desired. What has been said is that the existence of better documentation will not turn you into a modder.

 

That's what i'm talking about

when i was younger, eventually i had the time to reverse engineer but now i don"t want to decipher something that by nature is man made and very deterministic but become complex just by obfuscation or combinatorics.

In programing documentation Is a quality requirement! it should exist, i understand that there is also a need to protect the work done but i don't think there are quantum leap in there...

 

There will always be a reason not to mod, no matter the amount of documentation.

 

People, including you are arguing here that before you ask for better documentation you should first try to make a mod (and prove it according to some). Maybe, maybe not. Different people have different styles, some like to learn by trial and error, and have the time to do so, other people like to plan before and don't want to waste time testing things that should have been documented in the first place.

And who is arguing that better documentation will turn you into a modder? The whole point of this thread is that the documentation should be improved and better organized, to answer "better documentation wont turn you into a modder" sounds pretty irrelevant to me.

 

In the end I think this is deja vu with the online racing subscription thing or graphics. People here are defending the way rf2 is no matter what. Any criticism is heavily stomped on no matter what its merits if it is not praising rf2. As shown here again.

In the end I think 397 are smarter than the average rf2 defenders and have proven that they are willing to make the important changes when needed regardless how against the rf2 is everything. The online fees change was best thing ever to happen for rf2 and the continual graphical updates have been a clear net positive and raised awareness for rf2 all over the internet. Better documented modding tools and rf2 specific information is similarly important key feature for rf2 modding future and a no brainer for everybody who is willing to stop and think what are the biggest issues in rf2 modding at the moment.

 

Being a teacher, I know that people learn in different ways, this is proven FACT.

But even if you have all the documentation in the world, there will always be an excuse not to start modding. If you wanted to mod then you wouldn't let anything stop you from doing so.

If this is a fear making something accurate? It could be. If you think that modding is a case a putting all the right numbers and "HEY PRESTO" you have an accurate car/track, then you are deluded and have no idea how these things work! Anything which involves computer programming needs testing over and over and over, and even after this time inaccuracies will still be present. If you don't like that then maybe modding/game development is not for you.

Studio 397 can defend themselves and their processes if they want to. I think those that find it hilarious when someone says "there is no documentation" just like to call out this stupidity of these questions. Answers are out there, SO MANY youtube videos documenting these things and the modding forum is full of very good info. You just have to be willing to read and where there aren't answers, asking questions aren't against the law!

I have made a couple of locations to collate information to help modders:
http://sites.google.com/site/formula1teamhistory/
https://sites.google.com/site/trackmoddingresearch/

Wiki information is somewhat brief, but still good info on there: http://wiki.rfactor.net/
Reddit is there for people to discuss to (unofficial): http://www.reddit.com/r/rfactor2/

You all have the discord channel to! Chat in realtime with others to work through problems and challenges. https://discord.gg/aDnXztT

Youtube videos: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=r...d=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=rfactor+2+modding&tbm=vid

@Jka and others (including @Gijs van Elderen) have given me videos for this channel: http://www.youtube.com/racingsimmodding

Anything else?

 

Oh OK, lets not improve the documentation because even then some people might never make mods... Seriously? So what?

Have you heard of Arduino? Do you think they would have gotten anywhere if they had this kind of mentality? "Why would we make it easier for people to work with microcontrollers, the ones who want to do it would not let anything stop them anyway! Yeah....They are proof that improving documentation / support for development aimed to people not familiar with development can lead to huge success and that mentality is bullshit.

I'm an Electronics and software engineer, I make software for a living. I used to help with mods in the leagues I used to race in back in rf1 many years ago. I know how this stuff works thank you very much. Thats why I know how important is for RF2 to have a healthy modding community (something that is seriously lacking compared to RF1), and how important is good documentation to achieve that.

The fact that you point out that there are websites specifically made to aggregate information to help modders proves the point that the documentation could be better. Forums, chat channels and the like should be used to clear doubts and fill the gaps in the documentation, they should never be a substitute for it. Finding information in a forum is less than ideal to say the least. Look at the wiki you pointed out, the modding page has a wooping number of 2 contributors! it is not even open for editing and it barely appears at the very bottom of the devCorder in the S397 website. The rfactor2 subreddit barely has active users, not sure why you even put that here.

I think you and many others are missing the point of this thread. It is not about if it is currently possible to find answers somewhere on the internet, digging in the forums or youtube, or if it is possible to figure it out for yourself. It is about having a comprehensive, centralized and easy source of information, bot for people with experience in modding looking for specific details and also for people with no experience looking for a way to start.

I think opening the official wiki to be expanded and maintained by the community would be a good starting point, and it is something that doesn't even demand much resources from S397.

And whats with the backlash to this simple idea of improving the documentation? Would it hurt people who already make mods? Would it make it harder for you to develop your mods? NO. It can only benefit the community, so why the opposition?. From some of the comments in this thread it seems that some people take pride in the fact that they were able to make mods even with incomplete documentation, that they overcame that challenge, through perseverance and resourcefulness. Kudos to you I say, have a cookie, nobody gives a shit.

What the community at large cares about is the quantity and quality of the mods available, not how you managed to make a mod happen. And for that better documentation can only help, simple as that.

 

Once again, no one has said improved documentation is bad. Talk about missing the point!

What has been said is that here is some documentation... make use of it to mod. Don't avoid modding because the documentation is not what you'd like it to be.

Think of it like this: modding for some games is accomplished in spite of a total lack of documentation because the company doesn't support modding. How the hell do modders do anything in those games? Yet it gets done. At least with rF2 there is official documentation plus community-supported documentation. Yes, better documentation is nice and hopefully forthcoming but we've got more documentation than so many other games.

 

And you should know for a fact that improving the docs is = better textbooks in a weird way.

I just leave this here to remind you that once you had no clue either: https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/has-anyone-got-a-checklist.43469/

It's nice that since 2014 you built up that archive. But it's still not organized may contain outdated info. And the quality may varied. For example the race07 to rfactor 2. You had it for yourself and a few others who knew about it. And now you want to prove that it's all you need. Well maybe for you. But as you can see in the "Convert track info required" topic. The current state of documentation of rFactor 2 is reflected in that particular topic.
And you cannot deny it. And ironically you decided to create a new guide from scratch instead of linking one of the appropriate guide from your collection.

But you still trying to prove that the current state of documentation is good enough and no need to improve it.

nd to be a total dick there are at least 7 different guides in the topic about converting tracks from rf1 to rf2. And you had to write a new one.

I'm done with this topic. Not worth the effort to even read the topic.