Sim Racing servo ffb systems : OSW & Bodnar

You guys want to talk about raw material/product cost VS sale price??? Well, there's one product that puts the Accuforce base/rim combo and the Fanatec CSW V2 base to shame.....

The Fanatec Porsche 918 RSR rim. $400 U.S.!!! WTF???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

What do you think the license fee is on that? If you've ever seen Porsche option pricing ... It mighr be costing Fanatec a bundle

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I'm sorry but this is misleading Adrian. No one knew that the AF-Pro does not use the same type of motor used in servo motors (or that it wasn't even a servo motor to begin with not that that matters in the context of sim racing as has been explained before) until it was reviewed, which only became known some months after your initial dispute that it would not be in the same performance category on the basis of so little/no evidence (and i don't recall you claiming it was not a servo motor/system but perhaps just not an industrial grade servo). At the time, the difference in peak torque was the only known comparable metric and that it was lower than the peak torques of the bodnar and OSW was never in dispute. However the category type performance characteristics of it's motor (i.e. independent of peak torque/torque range) was in dispute. You ademantly claimed it would be worse whilst others did not share your position nor settle on the other absolute claim simply due to a lack of information/evidence at the time. At the time asking "could it perform worse?" Sure it could, but that's distinctly different to claiming it will.

You can't expect others to have necessarily shared the same hunch as you regarding it's performance because it could just as likely have turned out to have similar performance characteristics (again independent of peak torque/torque range) if it used the same/similar type of motor (information that was not available at the time) as the bodnar and OSW (again because it's the stepper motor vs AC induction motor design that is responsible for the observed ffb difference by reviewers and not the servo aspect). Evidence is what should drive your claims of certainty, not hunches.

Point being, you cannot (or should not) fault people for deferring to evidence first before accepting (or as you put it "realising") something is fact. To expect someone to just believe in you like so would imply they are gullible, regardless of whether your claim turns out true or false.

 

It was speculated more than a few moths ago that it was a stepper and it was confirmed at the time it was released that it was a stepper so thats a fair bit before the review. Thats neither here nor there as the stepper should operate fairly well.

For an easy to put together solution a servo is the obvious choice, there are electronics around to make it work out of the box, it has the encoder built in to it unlike a stepper.

Just because they went the stepper route doesnt mean that they would have an inferior product but they are making a commercial wheel and they are hitting a price point. That, the size of the motor contributed to it more than the type of motor.

 

I wasn't aware of the speculations but even so, as you said it was speculation. Speculating is not the same as claiming something certain/factual. However at the time of release you say it was confirmed a stepper motor? By whom? I don't recall anyone on rf2 forums producing or referencing evidence that it was or might be a stepper at the time of the discussions which was before release*.

Edit*: I just re-read your comment and realised what you're saying. I'm not saying that this SRG review is the first evidence that the AF Pro actually uses a stepper motor. It was either a much earlier review or by Joe (on the rf2 forums) some months back in another thread that spilled those beans to us on rf2 forums. But the discussion i'm referring to with Adrian took place months before even this.

I couldn't agree more. But they still won't perform as well as the motors in the bodnar and OSW due to the inherent motor differences. That does not diminish the performance you get for what you pay for in the AFPro compared to other pre-built branded ffb wheels on the market, i think it's an absolutely fantastic price for what you get comparatively to the bodnar (priced ~200% higher) and CSW v2 (which is only ~25-30% cheaper). However, OSW takes the price-to-performance crown of them all though for obvious reasons ofc.

But it is inferior to what else is available on the market (in terms of motor performance) but that certainly does not make it a bad product. It has a different target market than for example the bodnar and as with all things, you generally get what you pay for. However you get more for your money when it's DIY ffb wheels as we've seen with the OSW.

Though i had planned on getting an AF Pro since it was first previewed by ISR last year (or 2 years ago), i would change it to an OSW now given what i know now.


Edit 2: Correction too all my comments that the motors used by bodnar and OSW are AC induction (asynchronous) motors. They're not, they're AC synchronous motors.

 

The first time I ever heard about how the AF was a stepper motor (and maybe not as high end as we initially thought) was in the following thread --> http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.p...ove)-Please-Chime-In-Experiences-Info-Reviews

Some interesting points in that thread

 

Ah, thanks. So it was less than a month ago (my bad) when Joe confirmed on rf2 forums it was a stepper motor.

I'll give you this Adrian, the type of motor used in the bodnar and OSW (AC synchronous motors) are quite literally the crème de la crème of electric motor technology. There is nothing better, well, not entirely true, there are subcategories of AC synchronous motors too with slight variance in performance to one another but variances that would be imperceptible in sim racing).

 

no one knew? I did pretty much the first time I saw pics of it ( confirmed when better pics kept showing up),
I could also read "between the lines" when I asked certain questioned to the developers of it
it was no mystery to me , confirmed 100% when one of the first people to receive one took his apart & posted his findings.
(I'm not saying I'm the only one that could see things as they are from the very beginning I'm sure there are others)

right now I'm quite surprised it faired as well as it did in barrys review ( kudos to simX ) , or maybe they were being kind?
it's a totally different animal to the servo systems ( high spec ind.grade etc not the explanations you find on google that usually refer to RC type servo setup etc) .
look at all the peak torque graphs and anything else that takes your fancy it makes no difference

p.s (just read your last post) my opinion that the high end systems (EC OSW Bodnar) are a total overkill for sim racing thus there is a lot of headroom in capability.
they will simply convey with ease everything (good & bad) that a sim transmits

if ffb I'm sims continues to develope then the high end systems are future proof I guess lol

pps differences ( hands on ffb "feel" ) between the high end servo systems providing calibration is decent is a lot less than people will think, once one owns one there's really no where else left to go ( & no desire to either )

 

Bah, lol - ofc i'm talking about in context of those in the discussion in the rf2 thread at the time (and not external websites/forums). If there was someone and you knew of who knew, why then not mention it at the time?

But we discussed the points you raised about the physical aspects of it and i presented what i thought were well argued reasons with counter examples for why they weren't good enough to make your claim of certainty at the time. Remember? The cable size, the motor size (of which no data was available for it nor was that relevant to the question of the type of motor it was), control box size, etc. Whether it was a servo motor/system was never in dispute but that does not guarentee it could not have still been the same type of motor driving it as in the industrial servo motors (especially since the claim made by ISR and even Berney at the time was that it was a custom made/designed motor).

Also, wasn't the discussion during the pre-order phase in which case the only pictures of the physical motor available at the time were from ISR's 2013 preview in which case i didn't find it reasonable to make claims of certainty about it's possible performance as you did. For starters, it was not possible to see the steel laminations on the motor in the ISR video (snapshot showed below) which if were otherwise visible would have been an instant tell (and i would have conceded the possibility of it being the same/similar type of motor as the bodnar and OSW there and then…i wonder if it was tapped on purpose to try and hide this fact). Secondly, notice the not easily noticed but present coloured cables below the motor in the ISR picture as well as out the rear of the motor. It's not unreasonable to think the total number/bulk of these cables could power a two or three-phase AC motor. I get it isn't shaped like an industrial servo motor but it could still have been the same type of motor under the hood of it all from the available picture clues at the time.

ISR 2013 Preview:


SimRacingGarage Review:


I understand you saw things that gave you certainty in your minds-eye (but that in my view was still not enough evidence to make the claim of certainty as you did) but it seems strange to me to find it "funny" that some people chose to be more cautious and hold back their factual beliefs until more solid evidence became available.

You're hunch (but presented as fact) turned out right though so kudos there, i just wouldn't have made the same bet so early on as you did.

Yes….when one of the first people received and took his apart and posted his findings…which happened after the discussion though, right? Or at the very least if that knowledge was available, no one posted about it at the time of the discussion and if you knew of it, then again why not share it with us to backup your claim with concrete evidence at the time of the discussion? I think you think the discussion i'm referring to happened more recently than it did, lol.

Possibly or maybe it was all genuine. I happen to think his reviews are honest and by far the strongest and most consistent message we get from the comparison video is that the bodnar and Kollmorgen motor OSW motors are a step above the AF's motor. Like Spinelli, i wish he could have compared the OSW MiGe and Lenze motor as well to see if there is any noticeable performance difference (and independently of torque range) between them (since each are AC synchronous motors).

Well, actually if a torque/RPM graph of the AccuForce motor been available at the time of discussion it would have immediately settled the discussion/debate, lol. A torque/RPM graph for a stepper motor vs non stepper motor is literally night and day.

But they are the most responsive types of motors which is what you want from a motor as well as higher torque and RPM output (for sim racing). To get all that ffb detail and clarity, it's really the responsiveness that you want and need and AC synchronous motors are the best of all three of those aspects independently or combined actually, lol.

 

Hiya dripper

it wasn't really a hunch , I was pretty sure at the time on first sight of pics of the AF

no surprise when it was confirmed as a stepper ( by someone who took his apart )
steppers can perform pretty well though but shouldn't be confused with high grade servos

p.s your post are way to long

 

but you didn't predict it was a stepper motor at that time right? I mean, you made no mention of it at least. You were adamant it wasn't going to be the same performance as the industrial servo motors though which was eventually confirmed correct.

Yes. Sorry. lol.

 

Hiya

no I didn't know it was stepper it could have been many things, yes I knew it wasn't a high grade servo thus wouldn't have any where near the performance of one ( but still could be a decent ffb wheel ), the most frustrating thing that is was it being marketed as pretty much the same animal ( when asked direct questions it suddenly became kind of secret lol ) as the high end gear

still a decent wheel though based on reading users posts etc , although seems to be some frustration of settings etc
I just plugged mine in & kapow! sim racing heaven had landed

 

Yes i got that sort of impression too and was one of the major reasons for my intention of planning to get one originally.

 

Hiya

no I didn't know it was stepper it could have been many things, yes I knew it wasn't a high grade servo thus wouldn't have any where near the performance of one ( but still could be a decent ffb wheel ), the most frustrating thing that is was it being marketed as pretty much the same animal ( when I asked direct questions it suddenly became kind of secret lol ) as the high end gear

still a decent wheel though based on reading users posts etc , although seems to be some frustration of settings etc
I just plugged mine in & kapow! sim racing heaven had landed

 

that seems like an exaggerated statement to me. I am only basing this upon all of the reviews I have watched and read but almost all of them are very positive on the wheel and by and large place it in the same category as the higher end stuff . sure, Barry's review had it placing last but no one was dissing the performance of the AF--- really they were just saying it was a a little bit behind the other two.



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traind

the only way is to try & compare for yourself to make your own opinion, I don't have time at the moment to go 30 mins away to try one
(that's been offered to me ) as I'm not to interested in this type of system, I'd be there in a shot if it was an OSW though lol ( I'd want to be looking inside the enclosure too lol )

I'm a little shocked that a few have gone up for sale on the Iracing forum after this review + some AF owners are asking questions on the OSW thread with intentions of selling theirs ( think if I'd brought an AF unknowly I'd just stick with it and enjoy it as it's obviously better than the standard wheels out there ) , had a few PM's from people with both ( bodnar or OSW and received an AF .....no idea why they ordered one , who intend to part with the AF one stating due to being "underwhelmed" by it, but bear in mind the system they usually use )

I'm only stating my own opinion ( totally ignoring any previous sales marketing etc , my basic knowledge of different systems & testing on my own wheels -I have about 6 including frex Bodnar etc ) .

another little surprise is how well the OSW compared, although I know it's a serious piece of professional hardware I suspected they'd be more work to do on the firmware & controller calerbration for sim racing, but gosh those guys have done an excellant job in a fairly short space of time, best not underestimate the values of an open source project hey

anyhow , best judge for yourself, these are only my own opinions, others perhaps think differently & that's totally fine by me

p.s I personally see these types of systems in use in engineering/robotics companies
(my business deals with one & I have friends there)
what high grade servos & control systems do, vs stepper systems can do & there is a big difference, less apparent in sim racing perhaps, but as I've stated these are two completely separate separate systems with peak performance only as good as the weakest point
( in each system )

pps building my own OSW next winter , doing a cad my own enclosure for it too
will keep that or the bodnar which ever I prefer

 

thanks for the detail Adrianstealth. it does seem from reading about owners at this end of the market that many are very very picky. that isn't necessarily a bad thing if you were going to spend this much money on a wheel then you ought to get what you want.

your example is interesting because you already own a Bodnar yet you are intrigued enough by the OS W to go ahead and build one of those too. from the review that Barry did it seems to me that the Bodnar and OSW are pretty much the same wheel. my earlier comments only referred to the fact that the AF wheel does not seem too far behind the others but it is a bit behind. if you get an OSW I can only imagine it being marginally different from what you already have.

good times I suppose. I tend to be a bit cheap in how I spend and finally gave myself permission to upgrade my equipment all around. the bodnar would not break the bank but the extra two grand or so seems like it might be less of a winning proposition when you take value into account. the OS W is intriguing as the one in the recent review is only maybe a thousand more than the AF wheel and the cheaper options may also be just as good or better than the AF wheel. problem is I am not a tremendous fan of DIY.

I suppose I need to count myself fortunate to be able to make decisions between these expensive toys at all. in the short term I will keep up with my long suffering G25 and keep an eye on the forums until I make my choice. making the leap from g25 to any of these wheels I am sure I will be quite happy.

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1. Well it depends, traind. If you want to run cars at 1:1 or near 1:1 with real-life torque then the AF is actually quite far off from an OSW which is capable of 30 Nm at "stock" power ("stock" as in rated power, not over-amped or anything which apparently can safely and reliably give even more power/torque). The AF apparently maxes out at 13 Nm, or possibly 16 Nm. I've heard you can "boost" it to 16 Nm, or something, but that the boost can have some negative effects to the FFB?? I didnt quite understand, it was a bit over my head; I couldn't make sense of what the problem with 16 Nm on the AF was compared to it at 13 Nm (I remember some people talking about the issue in this forum). Anyways, to keep it simple, let's just say 13-16 Nm.


2. Apparently SimExperience has an even more powerful wheel but they don't sell it to "regular" people, only race-teams, etc. I don't know any details about this wheel though, I just remember it mentioned on their site and some ppl commenting on it.


3. If I'm not mistaken, the Bodnar wheels use a Killmorgan motor. It's therefore too bad that the OSW in the video review also used a Killmorgan motor (it would have been great if he reviewed one of the commonly used models of the MiGe brand, or even the Lenze rather than another Killmorgan and an expensive one at that).


4. We can't really quote specs on "the Bodnar wheel" because there isn't just one Bodnar wheel. It says right on the official Bodnar wheel website that different motors are available. So I presume you choose a motor when ordering or something (I'm guessing they're different models of the Killmorgan brand).

 

In real-life some cars' steering torques are way above 50 Nm at sharp turn, though. Anyhow, those two servo motors probably good enough for 99.9% of time for sim cars.
If both Bodnar and OSW used same brand of motor (while the OSW motor is more powerful --- higher peak torque), I believer the fact that the higher power (torque) servo motor the better. In, 5 of those 6 testers felt the OSW is better than Bodnar. That seems to suggest the higher Torque dynamic range the better. Give you some idea how important of torque dynamic range, see attached chart (torque vs steering angle) in 10 ms interval data of Corvette GT on Silverstone on several turns.
The dynamic range of FFB is huge with few ms. Both iRacing and rF2 FFB resolution is 10ms. Here are the data from those OSW white paper for testing on the big MiGg motor, it took about 3ms to ramp up to the peak torque, see the chart. A weaker motor could do far worse.
View attachment 16904
View attachment 16905

 

Question regarding the MiGe motors...

Nm for Nm, would the smaller MiGe perform better than the big MiGe since the small's friction rating (or resistance or whatever it's called) is a superior 1.75-ish VS the big MiGe's 2.25-ish?


P.S. The Lenze's rating is far superior to both MiGes at around 0.75-ish but it's out of the question for me as $1000-$1200 for just the motor is personally too much (even more-so considering the MiGes come in at around $400-$500), plus, the MiGes seem good enough for me