Hi, I see many time in different thread that for many people RF2 it's to hard to be a real sim and there are lack of grip. Only argumentation I've seen based on personnal feeling and by moment, without citing sources, on real driver test. First keep in memory, yes a sim (or a game want to be the best sim) is hardest than real life, it is obvious ! Because behind your PC, despite good FFB, you've a big lack of feeling (real speed, G's forces etc...), all essential to really be able to drive at the limit. We are disadvantaged but compensates by making more elevated risk. If it was soo easy a great number of us will be already professionals drivers, no ? Ok that not a real argumentation, just logical things. For a real argumentation I give a good comparaison. F1 for example because it's easy to find lot of data. On TV we can see during race G's forces : For Austin we can see a great breaking give until 5G A middle turn around 3G latteral A fast turn around 3.5G until 4G where is really fast. This is my telemetry with a Marussia at Sylverstone. We have same values, where's the lack of grip ? Please stop to say RF2 has lack of grip or it's too hard, ISI try to give us a real great simulator. Many of their competitors sacrifice realism by giving too much grip and loss/recovery of grip too gradual to make their game more accessible. Keep our comments to advance the game the right way, there are already plenty of easy access simulator. I want a great simulator (the better they can done), otherwise I would not be here. And when you see some say "RF2 lack of grip", use these data to show their contradictions. The best is yet to come ! Thank you and sorry for my bad English.
Sorry GaetanL, but your post doesn't really proof what it claims. It's not very difficult to compensate a lack of mechanical grip with additional downforce especialy in the fast corners. At least i think that the cars from ISI have indeed a little bit to less grip tendentious.
If we can compensate like you say,we could go above these values, no ? And for breaking zone also. These values are at the limit we can reach, also in real life. With aero you can compensate only on the intermediate zone, not on limit I've took Silverstone because lot of their curb are similar at Austin, we have similar value in similar type of curb.
If this were a street car maybe. But F1 cars vary from team to team and track to track, so it's a bit of a stretch. What we do know is they have a similar performance envelope. This will be a long post, but I figure it's time. Read the whole thing or don't comment on it. Here's the thing. I've said numerous times I don't get on with the rF2 physics. To me, it is like going back to F1C - it's basically like all of the progression since then has been thrown out the window. The dynamics of it is impressive (and the only reason I didn't ask for a refund when I had the chance) but right now it doesn't work for me as a whole. It's only natural with a more full model it will take time to get things working. Is the grip feeling (more on this in a bit) because of the tire, is it because real road, is it because of the track, the car or is it because of the weather even? Really, the best thing you have to go with is the ol' "Butt Dyno". Again, more on this in a bit. When I bring up the Car, I do mean things like the F2 for example, that is "numb". Some cars ARE like that, however in a racing sim it makes the car very foreign to drive until you just pound away at it. Been there, done that. And yes, you do see that in other sims and it is just as foreign. Every car has a different feel to it, some cars are easy to drive 9/10ths, some are difficult to do the same, but at the end of the day a car is a car. In a real car, steering like the F2 I would assume isn't that entirely weird, as fast as the car is you can't drive with steering wheel feel as it's already gone by then anyways - but you do have the butt feel that almost certainly they can feel how much grip there is left in the car, where the car is at attitude wise further up the corner. I can't help but say I've been sim racing for 15 years now (Yup, was sim racing before I could even drive) and this feels radically different from where we've gone and the improvements made in the last handful of years. Some say I'm crazy, but stick with me. rFactor 1 drove nothing like this. The top notch mods for rFactor never felt like this. Game Stock Car 2013 (my favorite out of the box sim right now) feels nothing like this. netKar Pro never felt like this. GTR2 never felt like this. Yes, even iRacing - that sim that so many like to say is "iceRacing" because there is "no grip" - never felt like this. I can hop in any of those sims and instantly feel in control of the car, know what I'm doing. Fire up rFactor 2 and suddenly it's like I might as well be drunk. Is rFactor 2 really such an amazingly awesomely awesome leap in amazement technology that it is supposed to be entirely different even to the point of making their previous "sim" feel entirely different? My turning point was when iRacing released NTMv5 on the Skip, bout 4 months ago. It's not perfect by any means, but it's "natural" - it reacts as it does, I can feel how much grip there is, the feedback is good enough. I did a video with the skip both there and here, to which I was told I couldn't drive rF2... yet here I am turning respectable times in iRacing... I've been doing this a while, I haven't had any issues, it's the same driver... Then the "response video" came around - featuring healthy amounts of "that oh so evil throttle braking" and mashing the gas at the apex to settle the car. Throttle braking is especially hilarious, as for years people whined about how it worked in iRacing, but here is supposedly the most amazing thing since sliced bread and yea, it does settle the car. So I guess iRacing was realistic when the physics were worse? Shame on anyone who claimed iRacing was bad because throttle braking worked while praising rF2... Anyways, Stick with me. I'm not lying, I'm not trying to bash rF2, I'm not twisting anything, I am simply telling of how I feel it - believe me, I want to like it - but if this is "realistic" then literally everything that proceeded it bar F1C and GTR1 were not realistic at all. For me there is a very weird disconnect in this sim. I don't jive with it at all. To put it the way I have multiple times, is it truly feels like driving on 4 rubber balls for tires. In other words, there is no contact patch. That all comes down to "feel", something highly subjective. It's not difficult to make a car go a certain speed down a straight, go a certain speed in the corner. I have moments with this sim. Things fall into place, the car suddenly feels like a car. It works. It clicks - the sim is "talking" to me. Car feels great, things are working logically. But just as quick it's back to next to no feel, I can't tell what the hell the car is doing. I mostly (almost solely at this point) drive the Corvette, I've done some setup work on it and I feel comfortable enough, but it still doesn't "click" the way other sims do. The car goes a certain speed here or there, it turns the certain lap times it should, but at the same time I feel like I have zero confidence, zero feel for the car. I'm simply put not "feeling" it, or perhaps a more accurate way to say it - I don't perceive any available grip. In all those other sims, as different as they may be, I have an increased perception of grip. The speeds are the same give or take, so it's safe to say there is a similar grip level, but the way it is presented to me "talks" to me clearer. I was driving the M3 GT2 in AC last night and it really does illustrate this perfectly. On the Hard / Super Hard (What they would race with, it runs super soft qualifying / night tires on default setup and there is a HUGE difference) the car does the same type of little "wobble" under braking. You can feel it slowing down as fast as it can, squirming around. The Corvette here does the exact same thing, but they could not be any more different in perception. The AC car feels like it's still "in" the road, gripped, just right at the limit of lock up. The rF2 Vette feels like it's just trying to throw itself into the wall. Both require the same type of little corrections under heavy braking to keep the car going straight, but the way they are presented are entirely different to me. Yup, the iRacing Ford GT GT2 does the same thing, just like AC it's a non issue though lock up is harder to detect for me. Yes, 3 different cars, though 3 different cars in the same class with a very similar performance envelope. Both the M3 and C6R were very competitive cars, stands to reason that they wouldn't have any amazingly huge flaws or deathtraps in their performance. You don't win races putting your car in the wall in the second hour of a 12 hour race. Hell, I did a little quick test with the M3 GT2 in PCars and C6R in rF2 at Silverstone, rF2 was faster and easier to drive. When the Marussia came out I spent a while with it - it "looked" like a duck, it "flew" like a duck, but it wasn't "talking" like a duck. Is it a duck? Some would say no, some would say yes. To some people, they hear the noise they make as a duck so to them, it sure as hell is a duck. And yes, before anyone says it, I've tried various FFB setups and view setups. I've always said rF2 does classic cars very well, and that really does come down to the way the grip is presented to me. It feels more "slippery" in it's handling, even if it isn't necessarily all that entirely true. What I feel is the biggest reason for the oddly perceived behavior is the lack of a contact patch, which last I checked in the release notes that is still a known issue that will be worked on in time. I'll sum up this whole post in one word. Perception.
My personal feeling is that rFactor 2 lacks grip and that spins happen too suddenly and that's the only feeling that matters to me!
I think quite a few people complaining about grip have not understood how the realroad works. From my understanding "green track" corresponds to Friday first laps on an F1 track which hasn't been used in a year. Quoting F1 drivers, the track is very slippery under such conditions. The second problem is that the realroad line is quite narrow if you generate it with AI offline. To get a "proper" rubbering you would need to save it after an online event, as the AI always takes the same lines.
Or pound away yourself. And because it's come up in the past with myself and will certainly with the post above, yes, I've done that. It doesn't change the perception.
Perception was the point of the problem. My first thread is precisely to show the difference between perception and facts. It is normal to feel a lack of grip in a simulator, there are too many things that you can not feel behind a PC. For me this is the crux of the problem. But the telemetry show that the physic is good and we have enought grip. Perception is better in a 6D simulator, with it I'm sure you will find RF2 have enought grip
True that but it's an interesting thing really. For example I feel absolutely the opposite as Empty Box does. rF2 to me is the holy grail of sim racing currently. I have quite long now a iRacing sub which I keep on to renew and I never drive over there anymore. I just check the new stuff and as he says really want to like it because of the online racing mainly but it just puts me off immediately as I drive the cars again. I never bitch about it and I wont bitch about it anywhere but to me it is totally weird and the cars are nothing like cars. More than that actually to me it feels like they have messed up it completely and they have no idea how to clean out the weird stuff out of their code. The cars suddenly gain and loose grip in an unnatural manner and fast left right swipes feel also very weird. When you get on the limit and the cars are sliding there is zero feedback. You just have some kind of resistance in the wheel but it tells you nothing, no matter if you go left or right or anything. Actually comparing it to rF2 is totally absurd IMO, you can compare it to the original rFactor but no way to rF2. It just lacks way too much compared to rF2. I always check it on new builds and releases but it's a complete mess TO ME. So I just stick to their hardware forums lol. I mean as he says I really want to like it cuz of the pick up racing but it just puts me of again and again. That's actually more frustrating than the fact that that I don't like it lol. Hope you get this. But now as the ISI servers are running I hope they get popular and I could finally get rid of iRacing forever cuz trying it over and over again makes me feel really stubborn and stupid somehow.
Then why is that not a problem in every other sim? Or again, is rF2 somehow different in that regard that it requires a 6DOF simulator to actually feel like anything semi normal? Every sim is slightly different, yet they all drive in somewhat similar fashions because guess what - a car is a car. The FFB isn't poor here either... well, on some cars it is (F2 anyone) but it works. You can put up G Loadings for iRacing and it'd match - yet people still will call it iceRacing. Why? Perception. When they drive there, they don't get told what they want or need to be told by the sim. The view is slightly different, the presentation graphically is different, the FFB is different. Any one of a number of things can throw off the whole thing and result in a different feel. Some people will never catch a slide there, meanwhile I spent half a practice sliding a Spec Racer Ford around like a hooligan because I can last Thursday. No sweat, no drama and my god it was a blast. Some people would NEVER believe that, because they are feeling something different in the same exact game. It doesn't matter how much grip there is or is not, what matters is how that is relayed to the user. That is what I'm talking about, not "people think there is no grip so there is no grip" but rather "I feel there is no grip, only way I can find if there is actually grip is to keep trying because there is possibly grip... but not sure...". It's not giving me that info at all. It's a guessing game for me.
OK, I'll comment. I have experience with all the sims that you do, and going back to day 1 of computer racing games/sims. I suggest you check-out your controller seetings and/or rF2 settings because at least with my Fanatec rig I agree with everything you have said except the rF2 peices. It feels by far the most alive and realistic and "controllable" of any sim. There are a hundred frustrations with UI, etc., but the basic FFB and car physics is unparalleled.
"Then why is that not a problem in every other sim?" In my first thread I explain this -> " too much grip or loss/recovery of grip too gradual" it is sufficient to change your perception. In Race07 for exemple, we are a lot to can done 5s at 10s faster than a real driver with equal track and car in a qualification session, it's not real. Gradual grip can help to feel better lost and recovery of grip and attenuated the lack of information that we share compared to the actual conditions.
+ FFB dynamics, i like + feeling of the tire flex, sensational - commanding alignment - tire patch I mostly lack a bit friction and drag feeling but i still like rf2 ffb the most.
My perception is that most RF2 cars are amazingly alive and talking to you in such a great, direct way that I have never experienced in any other sim, by far. Last sim I tried is Assetto Corsa, bought it yesterday. I'm quite disapponted by the lack of dynamics feedback of most cars (except in replays). Take the 60s F1 (EVE-F1) or the Clio, or the Skip Barber, they're all very alive and yet very different, and you can feel that. RF2 has no grip problem, really. If you try the T5 or EGT mods, those cars are very grippy and yet very alive in the same way. My personal opinion of course.
And what is your "data" about slow speed? At mid-high speed those cars are driven alone due to downforce, the deal is on low speed. Can you replicate this in rF2 ? http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xka2lk_i-don-t-even_animals
I feel the same , in game I drive open wheelers all the time and they seem like they are on ice at times and I dont get the feeling of weight from the car , when they start to spin its like I have very little control to bring them back and many times this is spinning at slow speeds , I spin while the AI take the same corner so much faster . Im just a hack and no star sim driver so I dont fool with settings much the cart just seems too slippery to me , I drive GSC and dont have the same feeling from the cars in that game they have stronger feelings of weight and grip which seems more real . I cant imagine a real race car weighing 1500lbs with such low centre of gravity spinning as easy it does in game .
Sometimes I wonder how much of peoples perception of grip comes from the audio in rF2. I've noticed it's definitely one of the most important indicators of what the car is doing for me, and in rF2 loosing grip does sound like you are on, well, ice. I have never spun out in real life with a one ton heavy corvette at 200 km/h but it feels like it should sound a bit more dramatic than it does in game. If the tires were screaming and squealing it would be a lot more obvious that I pushed the car too hard.
When Reiza starts making content for rF2, that thing will take off big time. There's a lot of cool content in rF2 right now that I can't even use because it feels so wrong.
