A good analysis of grip: rFactor 2 vs iRacing.

Please do not take this as being a flamewar, or a fanboy thing, I'm just trying to get this to the forums for the devs to examine. I have subscribed to EmptyBox's Youtube videos because I feel that he gives a very intelligent perspective on sim racing, and he just released this video comparing the rF2 Skip Barber to iRacing's counterpart at Mid-Ohio, and comparing to real life examples. You can clearly tell that there is an element to the driving where the rF2 Skippy is skating around the track, has a lack of grip and a sense of detachment from the road, while the iRacing car looks to be a lot more planted (I decided to let my iRacing membership run out, so I haven't driven it for myself). It is an interesting realization though, to see that rFactor 2 is about 4-5 seconds off of real life speeds, and I feel that I can truly see that time lost in the grip. I know that rF2's Mid-Ohio is fan-made, but it is a QUALITY fan-made track, where I feel it is accurate enough to run realistic life times, and not poorly made enough to account for 4 seconds lost on it. I am wondering if ISI is planning on adjusting the grip levels, to maybe gain a better feel while driving?

Here's the video, I really hope we can keep this conversation constructive and civil. What do you guys think of this? Do you think we'll likely see an upgraded version of the Skippy, or is this an issue in the physics engine?

 

It's not really analysis though, it's some subjective impressions and some uncorrelated, anecdotal evidence. Which is fine, I just can't draw any conclusions from it, and there are too many variables to make a legitimate assessment. I will advance a theory of my own though: you get better at a sim by adapting--both consciously and unconsciously--to the underlying mechanics. You're successful to the extent that you've internalized the simulation. So the more time you spend with one sim, the more disruptive a different one is to your sense of what feels "right"; especially in a situation where you're sub-consciously forced to compare the two.

So the more one simulation looks like another (e.g. Skippy at Ohio), the more emptybox utilizes the pattern recognition and muscle memory that he's developed in whichever sim he spent the most time driving. And the other one will feel somehow, perhaps ineffably wrong.

 

You can set track grip levels as well, so it most certainly could be the track. The most recent update of the Skippy fixed all/most of the previous grip issues I had, whether it was the car, the new LimeRock, or a combination of both. Either way, they are absolutely uncomparable.

He would be better to compare Skippy at Lime Rock where both are developer driven, not fan made. And even then it's a comparison of what one devleopment group feels it should be. Either one could modify their car/track to make the other more grippy, etc.

 

To make a better comparaison I suggest Skip Barber on Limerock, because Limerock is an ISI track (licencied). and for this track is easy to find a real race
And with this comparaison you'll find other conclusion about the grip level

 

Wow, that is a lot of talking just to say there should be more grip. Except that's not really what he's saying. He goes on and on about how the iRacing car is more planted, more confidence inspiring, and how he's now "fully in control." All things people say when you dial in more understeer, which is exactly what's happened with the iRacing car. So it has nothing to do with grip but everything to do with balance and handling dynamics.

I've raced (not just driven) the real cars, and the rF2 version is the more accurate of the two in that regard. But here, don't take my word for it. Compare the steering inputs to his clips and decide for yourself:

 

He's right about the grip level on VLM's Mid-Ohio with this car though. Not sure why but it's very low and you're sliding all over the place even when it's rubbered in, which the lap times reflect. At LRP though it's about right, if even a little too quick, as I can run 59's with relative ease.

 

Except when you realize the car has the same setup options more or less in both sims, in fact I even tested with the same set in both sims and got similar results to what is in the vid. The set I used in the video was more understeery and stable than the one I used in iRacing, most notably the rear bar was soft comparatively. With it's limited options setup wise, setups are basically moot.

Also, I haven't driven the skip in iRacing since 2009/2010, when it had the NR03 tires on it. I've put in a ton more time in the rF2 version comparatively.

It's also important to note that the Skip has a small diameter steering wheel, and I'd assume much stronger forces than our wheels are capable of delivering. That alone has a massive change on the way your input looks and feels. And yes, I can get it to drive specifically like that Matt, attack the corners more and turn up the FFB to a stronger level (will introduce clipping though) and it will do the same all day.

It doesn't look like it, but T1 is legitimately frightening when you go an inch too deep, I'll say that much. lol

It really wasn't meant to be an in depth analysis of anything, I'd just use telemetry to do it that way and see how and where the 4 seconds are vanishing. However, I specifically picked Mid Ohio because if rF2 will last long term, it's up to mod tracks. I wanted to see how the whole package compares as we will probably enjoy rF2 most often. The way I look at it, either way something is causing the car to be slow. and the ice feeling isn't something I'm alone on.

I did do a quick glance, and the speeds / shift points were all the same more or less. Corner speeds in both were close, but never seemed faster overall (barring outliers) in rF2.

I've driven the skip here on countless tracks (I preferred it to the iRacing version before the last update over there 2 weeks ago, now I'd say it's marginally in iR's court, but not night / day OMG U HAVE 2 LIEK DIS!!! difference if looking at say, LRP), yes, Mid Ohio was one of the strangest, LRP the tires are much gummier and more plyable feeling, however, the more important point is there is a serious issue affecting the car either way that does make you look at the whole concept of modability / sim oddly IMHO.

 

I have a decent smount of real life experience, and mostly with these school style cars....

1.) - 4 day wingless F1600 course from one school + 1 session (approx 12-15 laps) in their non-school non-detuned full slicks F2000.

2.) - 4 day F2000 course at another school

3.) - Full entire (over around a 7 month period) F2000 race season with each race event having 2x 20 laps (approx) practice sessions, 1x 20 lap (approx) quali session and 20 lap race + probably 12-20 more practice sessions (approx 20 laps EACH) throughout the season + their 4 day course + some instructing work for them in the F2000s for other customers (some customers were up and commers who were VERY quick, I believe one was/is managed by Ryan Dalziel).

4.) - 2 day 450-ish HP BMW engined open-cockpit prototype style car test (in Italy)

A.) I agree on some of the points he makes, but not on others. Comparing laptimes is irrelevant, you can have the most perfect or imperfectly modelled track, car physics, overal sim engine physics, and you can still have extrememly close or extremely far-off laptimes due to overall grip of the track surface (or other variables) regardless of how perfect or imperfect the track/car physics may be.

B.) But the laptime thing isnt even the important thing in his comparison, its the ultimate way the cars handle/act/react. The RFactor 2 version is much closer to reality, TRUST ME, Matt Sentell another with some real experience (see above, post #5) seems to agree.

People have a hard time comprehending just how out of shape, slippery, skatey, bad handling, overly senstitive to your throttle/steering/braking controls a car, especially these types, can be.

The IRacing version MAY be better at (im not eve sure about this, im just saying for arguments sake) translating to you that you are near the edge of grip so that you react accordingly, and therefore you spend less time getting the car so out of shape and then you feel more in control because you feel the limits better and you can know when to back off more often like you do in real life, and that way everything feels more planted, but let me tell you, the RFactor 2 version drives/acts/reacts much more like the real life version than the IRacing version. Its just too easy to do things in these sims that wouldnt be done in real life, even simple things like for ex. lifting from say 50% throttle to 20% throttle at the wrong moment can give bad reactions from the car and may never be done in real life (in that same situation) because you can just feel soooooo much more.

If in real life you ignored your common sense and all your senses telling you for eg. slightly lift here, start braking here, drag the brake just a tiny amount more before getting to the apex, wow stop applying anymore lock as you changed direction too quickly and can feel the rear really wanting to do a big rotation etc. If your real life senses were cut and you drove the car sim racing style, I can assure you it would drive MUCH more like the RFactor 2 car, I would say about 75% RFactor 2 to 25% IRacing.

C.) I can make my car feel like ice, and I can make the exact same car, with the same setup and same track, feel planted, stable and grippy just depending on things like vision settings (world/cockpit/head/yaw/pitch/roll movement/vibrations based on g-forces/grip/speed), FOV, and finally, but probably mostly, by FFB settings (I spent a lot of time messing with RFactor 1 FFB settings plus combos of it with realfeel, on 5 different wheels Logitech Momo Racing, Momo Force, G25, Fanatec CSR and now Thrustmaster T500RS, it was actually almost unbelievable at times the difference in feeling not only in your hands, but what your brain would interpret, based on just different FFB settings on the exact same car/track/setup).

Ive been in some situations in real life that if the EXACT IDENTICAL thing happened in a sim, people would say OMG these physics are a joke, can people please get over the harder=more realistic idea, these cars have tons of grip in real life (youtube link to a real life video of the car)" blah blah blah, and it seems that the ISI physics are complex and un-simplified enough to have all these super sensitive areas revealed, when other sims just dont reveal those traits at all, or often enough, and are too often not having the car's react negatively when you are doing small things when in the limit area (there is a highly regarded sim, which is not ISI or IRacing based, which is BY FAR the worst when it comes to his aspect).

The way that you need IMMENSE concentration to be on top of the car in RFactor 2, being completely focused and in the zone because every little movement of brake throttle and steering WILL have an affect on the car's handling, is EXACTLY how cars must be driven in real life assuming you are lapping within lets say 7% of the car's absolute laptime (7% equates to 6.300 seconds off a 1:30.000 laptime).



P.S. Ive said this many times, I am not a fanboy, I play sims to replace my non-existant (i'd like to think of it as on pause lol) real life career. I am not obligated or "attached" to any sim-racing developers/companies and honestly, truly, have no bias.

Oh and I tend to over-explain and analyse things lol, so please take this as just a large explanation/reply to your video, and NOT an attack on your video/thoughts. You make VERY good videos, with no bias towards any sim, and I respect your thoughts, and you are a very good sim driver as well, so please dont take this personally as an attack .

 

This is always always ALWAYS the big one in my opinion. A combination of not realising how fast and hard you are pushing in the sims, and (for most people) how under the limit you are in real life situations on track. While they are the same in theory, (going around a track in a race car) they are so totally different. Like Spinelli says, all those natural instincts can hold you back, keep you under the limit because your life is technically on the line, you are driving someone elses or your own car, etc. I'm sure you could work in some analysis of Grand Theft Auto 4 in here somehow...in how real life is different lol XD

Now in terms of sim vs sim, that causes some pretty big problems right from the start...least in my opinion it does XD
iRacing: no form of dynamic road rubbering, (possibly constant grip level over the whole surface, but I'm not sure)
rF2: rubber being laid down affecting grip, depends on where cars are braking and loading the tyres up. Dirty track off-line too.


What I'd like to see just as an experiment is some kind of server or league that will run a race weekend, and only allow 1 "car" for you to use in a single weekend. If you crash, stewards will look at the footage and decide if your car has been really munted up by the crash, and then exclude you from further sessions in that weekend. Now put in a small prize for the championship winner so there is some motivation, and I'm sure you will see most drivers actually lapping more like real racers. Provided the wreckers stay out of it XD
What I mean by that is getting people to not just scream out on track with fresh cold tyres, trying to hotlap and nail pb's, watch them spin off track after pulling 3 inconsistent laps and then claim that the car/track/sim is unrealistic...when in actual fact what they are doing is unrealistic in a way.
I dunno, some way of seeing drivers actually having to take care of what they are doing.

 

I'm not going to keep going on about this but all I'm going to say is the car is supposed to be extremely neutral all the way through a corner, from entry to exit, and that's how rF2's version is. If you think the iRacing car is similarly balanced on throttle then you're nowhere near the limit.

 

I did some work in iRacing examining the grip levels of the MP412C GT3 car at Silverstone (old track layout) in the previous build, to see if the iRacing car was too slippery on grip. Used some maths functions in MoTeC to give the following results, when trying to deliberately push the car into oversteer situations.

Top trace shows wheel spin front (green) and wheel spin rear (blue). Middle (red) trace is steering input angle.

 

LOL EmptyBox!!
I for one really attack you:
Rarely heard so much crap in 10mins and 57 seconds!
You don´t know what you talking about!
Just laughable...

 

I'll just throw in "dynamic track and tyres vs. static" - and there you have it...

 

I can't drive the Regional car either. I agree that something is wrong with it. The National Skippy is a lot better though. The guy in the video doesn't present himself as an unbiased observer though. He comes off as a person who can drive one sim but can't drive the other so he made a youtube video to rationalize it.

 

Yes, but...

A. If the pure physics/handling dynamics aren't there, regardless of live track and all that dynamic stuff, then all that dynamic stuff doesnt matter

and

B. Iracing with their large budget/backing, do you actually think they will not have dynamic track within the next year, 2 at the most? They probably have DX11 implemented already in their non-public development builds. They keep pushing. Even if I believe they arent the best or even in the top 2 for best physics in the market (and will probably slide to 4th once Assetto Corsa comes out), the thing is they keep on developing on and on. So they will always be up there.

Having said that, for how much Iracing charges, for how much they claim, how much their ignorant fanboys who just blow off every other sim talk about how great it is, how much they market, how much they develop, etc. etc. IRacing is a MASSIVE MASSIVE disapointment. With all that development, all that money, all those ridiculous insane prices/fees, all that backing, etc, they should EASILY 10000% no questions asked be the best sim (in terms of pure physics/racecar handling dynamics) easily, no competetion, or at the very worst be arguably in most peoples eyes (80-90% of all simracers) the best one. But its not like that at all. With RFactor 2, Netkar Pro, Game Stock Car (Reiza please learn/use the RF2 engine!!!!), soon Assetto Corsa, and even in the past years RFactor 1, there has just been too much competition, that not only has been close, but more often than not superior to IRacing (in terms of the pure driving), and again, with all IRacing's money, claims, backing, marketing, insanely high prices fees, etc. it should not only be the best sim to drive, but easily by far the best one, and its definitely neither of those.

 

So you are extending this bogus "analysis" to include what iRacing could be like in two years ?

And how many attempts have they had on a proper tyre model, which is still crap ?

 

While you may not agree with him...that's just rude. Why not just say you disagree and share your own views.

I'm sure you've never spoken "crap" in your life. People in glass houses should'nt throw stones.

 

I disagree with the lap times the video author said and obviously with most of the other stuff. 3rd lap in rubbered Mid-Ohio, and I have done 1:38.458 with 22L of starting fuel. With nice setup (adjusted tire pressure, is really important in this car) and some training I think 36s or at least near 36s are possible.

You only lose controll if you drive with no care or pushing gas like you were in GT5. I really don't like Regional version, I love National one, but despite I don't like Regional I think is not bad at all... I would like to try It in real life, but I can't, all I say is about videos and how driver handles de car, how the lost the car, crashes, grip lost... Only a little group of simdrivers can say they tested some cars in real life so I can be wrong.

I will practice a little more and I will upload a video of how this car works in fan-made Mid-Ohio...

 

Yes it was rude.
But I was in rage about so many BS.
Surely I told a lot of crap in my life, but I don´t make a 10min youtube-vid about it.
And there is really no need explain why this vid is "crap".

 

But you miss the fundamental flaw in your point. If his video is indeed "crap" in the sense that he is in fact wrong (which btw is still in dispute as it's just a bunch of individual opinions here) he wouldn't know that...or else he wouldn't have made the video in the first place.