Wow what a difference

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by buddhatree, Jun 1, 2012.

  1. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    I went from a G25 to the newer (but almost identical) GT2 wheel and would concur with your assessment!
     
  2. Ricknau

    Ricknau Registered

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    you realize that the FFB system is not the same, right? Elite has two motors. Non-Elite has one motor. Drivers would be different too i would think.
     
  3. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    They are totally, 100%, not on the same page, not even in the same book different.

    The FFB system of the non-Elite is identical with the one in GT2 and GT3RS, from a mechanical stand point. Same motors, same type of belt system. Essentially the CSR non-Elite is a Porsche wheel that looks a bit different.

    Look at the graph I posted on the first page, there you will see the difference between the Porsche wheel tech (GT2, GT3RS, CSR) and the CSR Elite. It's in a different league.
     
  4. Ricknau

    Ricknau Registered

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    I wonder though if the Elite has more power than some people need. If you run it at a force level less than all it is capable of you might have purchaed more power than you need. I know there is a limit to how strong I want the force of my wheel to be. I used to run it pretty high but have come to prefer it a little weaker. It makes it easier to counter steer. I don't know how realitic that is but currently that's my preferred way to drive. That's one rationale I came up with to not purchase it. Since lately I have reduced my FFB stregnth I figured why buy a super powerful wheel?

    As far as my price gouging question goes... I realize that those who buy it say the expereince is worth the money. And that is what Fanatec is marketing... the superior experience. And honestly I wish I had one. I was mainly questioning the cost as a funtion of materials, i.e., add a second motor and double the price. But the name says it all and signals their strategy. Give it a high price point and establish it as an elite item. I just wonder if they would make more money if they lowered that price point just a little and sold more units. Personally, I am not rich but have a fair amount of discretionary money to spend on my hobbies. But I balk at just giving it away when I think "the man" is getting greedy.
     
  5. Jameswesty

    Jameswesty Registered

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    Its not about how hard the FFB is its about how responsive it is.

    At a guess the point of having 2 moters is that you can have 1 moter dedicated for each direction that gives you more toque and lowers latency allowing for the wheel to be far more responsive and closer to that of a real car.

    "I used to run it pretty high but have come to prefer it a little weaker. It makes it easier to counter steer. "

    That's the fundamental issue with consumer FFB wheels , In a real car the counter steer is done for you by the car its just up to the driver to control it. The fact that you lower the FFB to losen up the wheel shows you how **** the wheel is , G25 and G27 almost all the consumer wheels have the same issue to some extent.

    I'm really considering getting a CSW when it comes out if it actually responds like a real car wheel just need some way to demo it.

    But yah I do have some questions about the price and the fact that surely if it is the best wheel most people would end up getting it if it was a tiny bit cheaper.

    There are probably loads of people that have raced with g25 , g27 for years and are looking for something top of the line but cannot justify 600 for a FFB device , £350 for the base and a basic wheel with no peddles would seem to me to be more reasonable price and I would happily sacrifice all the cosmetic aspects of the base as its not something I look at when using.

    The worse thing with Fanatec is the way they have the pricing set up the same in $ and £ or the fact the table clamp costs £60 or so with postage It makes me question how much of the money goes into the product and how much goes into there profit margin.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2012
  6. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    Exactly. How powerful it is overall is much less of an issue compared to how fast it responds to FFB input from the comp, how fast it can spin the wheel, and how quickly it can change the direction of the wheel at full speed. And sadly those are areas where the older tech Fanatec wheels are lacking, no matter how good they feel otherwise. Dare I even suggest that the reason the Fanatecs don't "rattle" in rF2 isn't as much due to the belt drive (though naturally that at least cuts the sounds down somewhat), but the fact that they're comparatively slow when changing directions, and simply can't manage it?
     
  7. MystaMagoo

    MystaMagoo Registered

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    The problem with the G25 and G27 is in the center,it is HORRIBLE!!

    You especially notice it in flip flops and chicanes.
     
  8. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    As others have said a super strong ffb system of a t500rs, csr elite, frex simcon wheel, ecci ffb wheel, etc etc is totally different than say cranking the ffb to absolute max in a cheap "mainstream" wheel, just like in real life these wheels will allow you to crank the ffb mcuh stronger than your mainstream wheel while not affecting counter steering in any way. Its totally different. Theres been times in real life where the wheel has almost wanted to rip my hands off, but I could countersteer just fine. Thats what these wheels are attempting to get closer too, super strong only when it has to be, and done in the right way so it doesnt have a negative affect on other things (like in your example, countersteering).

    Yep because the G25 "turns its ffb off" while in centre, it totally destroyed all my braking and grip feel when the wheel was straight, i tried to get used to it for hmmm I dont know a whole year... Even returned it before my 2 year extended warranty expired for another one. What a joke, destroys braking on the limit of locking up, and destroys the consistency of being able to do it lap after lap corner after corner. Its too bad, because I much prefer the harsher almost notchier and rawer/direct ffb feel of the g25 over the smoother more natural feeling feel of the fanatec wheels. Thank God for the T500rs (supposedly has the real raw harsh feel of the g25 without turning its ffb effects off while centered).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2012
  9. mikem

    mikem Registered

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    Actually, you lose the Xbox360 support since PC and PS3 works on the same USB protocol ie. the CSW apart from the the difference in the number of buttons being supported, will be PS3 compatible.

    Also along with the quick release mechanism, more available rims and more buttons, there's also other electrical/circuit improvement. And I'm sure there are other things that Fanatec is learning from CSR-E that will be improved on the CSW.


    Having a inherently powerful motor (and power supply) makes a huge difference. If you read Leo Bodnar's article on Why FFB in Simulations Does Not Work: http://tiny.cc/o0qgfw
    You'll see the need for a super powerful FFB.

    But those who can't afford to pay the $3K for the Bodnar FFB setup, or the lesser Frex or ECCI, there's always the danger of turning the FFB higher than the motor can handle resulting in distortion or clipping. There's a great write up by Niels Heusinkveld (of Reiza) on why you shouldn't drive the FFB on the G25, for example, too high: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/like-your-ffb-strong-think-again.30763/

    So if you start with a relatively strong wheel like the T500RS or the CSR-E- the former has a single 65W motor (and PS with 6.67A of current vs. 1.75A on the G25) and the latter two 60W motors- there's a very good chance you don't need to turn the FFB as high as you would with the G25/G27 or the cheaper Fanatecs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2012
  10. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    Console compatibility is a total non-issue for me, and I was really talking about my own perspective in that post. Whether the electrical/circuit improvements actually make a noticeable difference will be seen in the future, though I have no doubt Fanatec will indeed use what they learned with the CSR-E to make the CSW better.
    I have read it several times, and he's not really wrong, but it's also not what was strictly the subject of my post. What Leo is talking about is a new way of implementing FFB, not just power requirements (which would also be higher with his system). What I was talking about was more related to the current situation in consumer wheels, where a more responsive wheel tends to give better results even if it isn't as powerful as a less responsive wheel.
    The FREX is an odd beast, because despite it's many good points, there have been tests where it actually hasn't performed at all like you'd expect, though I can't fathom the reasons. It is definitely stronger than just about any other wheel out there, but looking at the graphs it actually doesn't accelerate any faster than the G25, the top speed is only slightly higher, and it might even be slightly slower to respond, lagging behind the G25 when changing directions. The power is definitely there, but maybe the speed just isn't? (EDIT: Apparently Niels feels the same way...)

    Anyway, you obviously need to adjust any wheel properly to avoid clipping and other unwanted effects, that's a given.
    Unfortunately with the Fanatec wheels (at least with drivers up to 717 and older) you always have to run the wheel at 100% (wheel setting, you can lower it in game settings), because the power setting works differently in them (at least according to this benchmark on a Fanatec fan site, tested with GT2 and CSR-E) than in other wheels. Normally when you set power to say 50%, it sets the maximum power at 50% and scales the rest down. What happens with Fanatec wheels however is that the power response is exactly the same as it is when using 100%, except the power caps out (you could actually say it clips) at 50%. Same happens with every other setting. So to get a linear power response without clipping you need to set the wheel to 100% always, and adjust the strength from the game. That is unless they change the behavior in later updates.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2012
  11. thuGG

    thuGG Registered

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    The problem with GT3, GT2, CSR wheels is that they are slow and have high internal friction. If you want belt driven wheel without this issues you need T500 RS, CSR-Elite or CSW.
     
  12. blanes

    blanes Registered

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    I bought the original Porsche Wheel Turbo S (PC, Xbox + Ps3 compatible) along with Clubsport Pedals and love it.

    I previously owned logitech and thrustmaster wheels and they were fun but this wheel feels so much better all round. I don't find the response to be slow at all but then maybe I am not Pro enough ! LOL

    I liked it so much I bought another complete wheel + Clubsport Pedals as a backup just as they went out of production/supply and it still sits unused in its original shipping cartons as I never have needed it ! Ha :)

    My original PWTS is 2 yrs old now and after countless hours of driving it still feels as good as Day One - the quality of the build is superb. In fact just last night I updated to the lastest Firmware and Drivers and it works flawlessly ( despite others having trouble with other model Fanatec wheels ).

    For mine Fanatec got it right and I could never go back - especially to Thrustmaster as their service was lousy.
     
  13. Crankee Stroka

    Crankee Stroka Registered

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    Very interesting article Mr Tree. Erm.. Buddha if I may :D
    & everyone else for the input.
    The issue is one of helical gearing vs belt & pulleys.
    Think "Ducati" moving from bevel gears to belt for overhead camshaft applications.
    Think of the entire automotive industry? moving from gear & chain driven OHC
    to be belt driven.
    Many reasons: Drive noise, extended service life of components, minimises power loss
    more accurate as in NO gear lash. Belt being direct drive of course.
    Even helical gears have miniscule backlash. Especially alloy/metal ones.
    I now know which wheel I prefer as I don't own one just yet.
    I sincerely hope I'll be able to get one purely for PC's and negate the puss box
    and g... umm playstation uselessness.
    If this issue has you confused then just wait until the newer >helical belt drive< systems
    advance a bit further.
    http://www.goodyearep.com/eaglenrg
    Quite common these days.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2012
  14. Max Attack

    Max Attack Registered

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    And now the CSR-E runs at 500Hz. Thats quick..
    Now it seems like I feel all the pebles on all the bumps on the track.
     
  15. Digi Lauda

    Digi Lauda Registered

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    Hi,

    500 Hz is not new for the CSR-E! You can read it here........

    http://f-wheel.com/reviews/csr-elite-wheel-benchmarked

    Quote:
    EDIT on 15.12.2011: After further observation, I discovered that with firmware 717 CSR Elite actually started communicating at 500Hz, as I PC receives new wheel position readout every 2ms. I am terribly sorry for the mistake I made. I ran a ton of tests with different beta firmware versions and unfortunately looked at the wrong data when researching update rates. This higher refresh rate also looks to have decreased wheel's latency by about 5ms.


    digi
     
  16. Max Attack

    Max Attack Registered

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    I did not know this, Thank you for the link.
     
  17. tjc

    tjc Member

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    Sounds very interesting indeed...

    So... would you care to share? :)
     
  18. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    "well...Ill insist on this and maybe Im wrong.
    I keep low at ffb, 40%.
    I use centering spring, 20 or 40% depending on track. (20% at Monaco, 40% at Monza)
    I feel the grip absolutely, I feel ffb and dont wake up anyone.
    Tried ffb at 100%, feel didnt get any better, just more sudden changes in forces I didnt enjoy at all.
    Am I so wrong? "

    third time I post this lol (g25 here and Im loving it, best value for money by far)
     
  19. Saabjock

    Saabjock Registered

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    I think so...considering you don't even get a wheel mount with the purchase. You have to fork out another $49USD just to attach this very expensive wheel. Seems a tad too expensive. That was the 'deal-breaker' for me. It's principal. For that price, the mount should have been included. You're 'stuck' with that extra cost if you want to mount the wheel on anything but a gaming pod (desk, table, etc..).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2012
  20. jubuttib

    jubuttib Registered

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    Not having a table mount included is silly, but otherwise the price is pretty much what I'd expect.
     

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