Would like to reduce the "arcade game" feel to steering response

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Andrew Nagy, May 22, 2021.

  1. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Indeed. I guess perhaps driving with greatly increased difficulty (with not matching steering) worked like an additional weight, increased difficulty. Being kept on a toes, a lot more alerted and aware the whole time. Then coming back to normal difficulty was just so much easier. Thats why I advocate realism in simracing to be on the harder side. Not very much, and not on purpose, but when there is a doubt, developers should lean towards harder side, rather than easier side. Just to make simracing more rewarding, instead of making it more profitable for giggles and laughs from very temporary players.

    When I used to race online a lot, once I drove several months with wrongly setup FFB wheel degrees in profiler. I was slightly shocked that I managed not to notice it for so long, as I was undeperforming so badly - especially with twitchy cars. I am sure there are many simracers who run into this problem, and perhaps never notice it happening...
     
  2. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    What's even funnier is that there are people telling how crap rF2 is in one threat while linking ripped rF2 tracks for AC in the this threat without being ashamed or anything. I would be the last one to claim that I haven't used converted tracks at one point or another but behaviour like this is ... let's call it "special". And checking who made the conversion it is no surprise that it looks like it does.

    Getting back to the topic: checking that the ingame steering wheel rotation matches the rotation of your steering wheel might be a good start before diving into setup work. There is one important setting you need to know wich is tagged by default iirc. But make sure that this is still the case.

    20210527232435_1.jpg
     
  3. Ef123

    Ef123 Registered

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    Take a look at AC laser scanned official content being ripped and imported to RF2 without official consent from Kunos. While this track is just a mod for RF2, which the OWNER already gave PERMISSION.

    About looks. I don't know buddy, it looks darn fine to me.

    20210528043110_1.jpg

    Edit: Correct SS
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2021
  4. Andrew Nagy

    Andrew Nagy Registered

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    OK, I tried a different car (the native SR3), and observed the same steering phenomenon, which ruled out the SR1 mod my coach made for me as the culprit. So I posted my issue on the Fanatec forum, and was advised that the relationship between real and virtual steering rotation is controlled by the SENS setting in the DD1 tuning menu. By the way, this is not obvious from the explanation of what SENS does shown in the tuning menu. After a little experimentation, I found that a SENS setting of 850 gives me as close to a 1:1 real/virtual steering wheel rotation as I can get it. Wow - that's more like it! Now it steers like the real car. I've only done a couple of laps, not really trying to go fast, and almost immediately knocked out some times that I was only doing once in a blue moon previously. I also caught several spins, another first (I was intentionally driving a little sloppily to test the steering response). Echoing Mantasisg's comment in post #82, it's amazing that I hadn't noticed this steering angle mismatch much sooner, and might never have if you guys hadn't slapped me upside the head and pointed out that this is the first thing I should check. So thanks very much to everybody for their very helpful inputs. My next race is June 26, and I finally feel confident that some quality time on the sim will help me prepare for it
     
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  5. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    We have all been hindered by our hardware from time to time, it is an added layer of complexity that is between us and the software. People tend to forget or dismiss that the fault can be their how.
     
  6. Andrew Nagy

    Andrew Nagy Registered

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    Very true. There are a lot of possible explanations for non-optimal behavior with the sim: in-game calibration and other settings, in-session settings, a vast array of car settings, an equally daunting number of hardware tuning options, debates over pros and cons of RF2 vs. other sim games, and of course there's always driver skill and consistency. It doesn't help that with Fanatec at least, the manuals and onboard help menus are translated from German, and are often confusing and unclear. For example, nowhere in the onboard description of what the SENS setting in the DD1 tuning menu does it state that the value of the setting directly impacts the relationship between the number of degrees of real vs. virtual steering wheel rotation.
     
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  7. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Let us know how it has been going ;).
     
  8. ATQ

    ATQ Registered

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    I haven't seen this mentioned yet it's something that could potentially improve things. Try unchecking "vehicle set" on the steering rotation, and dial in the correct rotation on your wheel. On my CSW 2.5 this can significantly reduce lag (depends on what kind of mood the software is in - it's a bit weird and inconsistent). Having the input lag behind what the car is actually doing could be throwing off your responses and making it feel weird.
     
  9. Andrew Nagy

    Andrew Nagy Registered

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    Matching the rotation of the physical wheel to that of the virtual wheel has, as could be expected, made a huge difference in the experience of driving the sim. With that distraction removed, I can now focus on other aspects of how the car is behaving. For example, the heavy understeer in slow corners is now much more apparent, so I softened the front ARB, and stiffened the rear, and voila, the car turns in beautifully now, without the pendulum arcade game feel to the steering. It is vastly more fun to drive now, because it is a lot more realistic. I now believe that practice time on the sim will translate to improvements in the real car, which was the goal. I'm sure there are other tweaks I could perform, but I think I will leave things alone for awhile and just focus on driving.
     
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  10. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Heck yeah!! Great to know!! ;)
     
  11. Wanderpoole

    Wanderpoole Registered

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    I hope u are just trying to be funny. This is a great discussion and if we had more of these on many other topics in rF2 maybe there wouldn't be a need for such magical fixes that take weeks to discover.
     
  12. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Well I was a bit sarcastic, and I hope you are just trying to be funny :D

    P.S. I very very enjoy rich and fulfilling discussions.
     
  13. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I think we can agree that he got all the help he asked for for some few interesting reasons:
    1) Andrew has been always educated and polite, never pretending.
    2) He is one of those rare guys that has more experience in a real car than in a simulator (so , always wanting for some comfirmation bias, we want him to say how amazing RF2 is)
    3) He invested significant time and money to equip himself correctly for the job he wanted done (so this was read from us as a serious investment that deserved a positive feedback (see point 2).
    4) He is a completely computer noob, he would have received more help only if he had boobs equipped... yes nerds are like that.

    In conclusion, he received help because we hoped in return to have confirmations, if he was a teen with a G25 I doubt we would be here now.
     
  14. MotherDawg

    MotherDawg Registered

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    There are nice car setup discussions in this thread but I hope you guys understand that augmenting tire pressures and cambers wont make you faster... it will make you slower.

    S397 broke ISI's tire model. Now a days, you want to go fast in rF2, drop the tire pressures and cambers and voilĂ , instant 2 seconds quicker.

    ---
    Written by Jon Uyan on the CMSRacing.com Discord Channel to complement a set of setups supplied to the league.

    1- Tires: Min pressures provide you the best grip overall regardless of IMO (Inside-Middle-Outside) temperature changes.

    2- Camber: is the most 'broken' suspension geometry element in rF2 physics at the moment, since the latest 2017 update. The camber, thermal grip and contact patch values and their relationship is such that setting up proper camber for the car to handle corners does not work the way it should. In other words; if you are trying to set your camber angles so that you have a perfect contact patch on outside (loaded) tires, you're on the wrong path!. Instead camber has a more than usual relationship with global grip amount. The more closer to 0 degrees the more grip you have everywhere, regardless of cornering problems.
    ---

    I've been playing gMotor sim since the 90s; SCGT, rF1, AMS, rF2. It' was getting better and better until 2017.

    HF
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2021
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  15. MotherDawg

    MotherDawg Registered

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    As for the FFB part of this thread.

    The interface has limited capability. Don't be shy to directly edit the Controller.json file. There are more settings in the file than available from the interface but Know what you're doing. Yes do copy/paste the file so to have yourself a few backups.

    E. G.: Logitech users have rumble strip that push while they should pull:
    "Rumble strip pull factor":-1.5, <<<=== minus... now will pull like they're supposed to.

    All " saturation " values defines the maximum value it can reach compared to the max output of that force.
    A saturation of 1 can completely counter act what ever forces is being applied at that moment.
    A saturation of 0.5 can counter act up to 50% of forces is being applied at that moment.

    Some forces... that might be the goal. Some others not so much and what works for one wheel might not for another.

    I run a G29 so it's has "limitations". :eek:

    I'm presently testing negative resistance just to see if it can help self alignment (the wheel turning back when oversteering).
    "Steering resistance coefficient":-0.1,
    "Steering resistance saturation":1,

    And so on... the json file is full nice bits.

    HF!
     
  16. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @MotherDawg I think you've missed the point of this thread, which isn't about going as fast as possible. I'd also like to see some more evidence behind that post you keep pasting all over the place, but not here because it's not related to the OP. Maybe in the thread you started with it.

    Re rumble strip pull, for my own curiosity can you let me know what track you're feeling that on?
     
  17. Rastas

    Rastas Registered

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    All this is placebo effect,nothing more,never have this on my side....haters gona hate....
     
  18. MotherDawg

    MotherDawg Registered

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    @Lazza Can't help myself... sorry... but they broke my favorite toy! :(

    This thread not being "about going as fast as possible"... that does not compute dude ! o_O

    Rumble Strip:
    I run a G29.
    I don't remember way back when, I got rF2, the rumble strip were pushing: turning right into a corner, hitting the apex curbing, it would push left.
    In rF1 and AMS, with a Logitech wheel, you had to inverse the forces. Rumble strips would also be inverse at the same time.
    (but it would not inverse the RealFeel parking lot forces (ex LeoFFB), the 'Kf' value had to be manually set negative too)

    rF2, no need for reverse forces, the game identifies the wheel and applies the right force direction... but for me, the rumble strips were pushing toward the track so I inversed that value.

    As of late, I wanted to see if I was in the potatoes so I made a test.
    I think it was at Brno with APEX's GT1C mod a couple of weeks ago. I kept getting unsettled by the pulling of the curbing so I tried it positive... the feeling was all wrong. I switched it back. But I made a mess of it and reloading a wheel profile that had it like normal, positive, I started to practice for the Paul Ricard event... "WHAT?" Shut the game. Checked my profiles, fix the culprits, so now all the strips pull toward the strip. What I personally feel is how they should. So the same behavior at two tracks.

    And I can follow up with my "negative resistance" test.
    I used to run -0.1 in AMS and for me, with my G29, in the Caterham, AMS's FFB is better than rF2's. It's Neils' FFB... so what can S397 do... hire the guy ? But I really think... fell it help the self alignment when the car is oversteering on a G29.

    Code:
        "Steering effects strength":10000,
        "Rumble strip magnitude":1,
        "Rumble strip magnitude#":"How strong the canned rumble strip rumble is.  Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect.",
        "Rumble strip pull factor":-1.5,
        "Rumble strip pull factor#":"How strongly wheel pulls right\/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5.",
        "Rumble strip update thresh":0.05,
        "Rumble strip update thresh#":"Amount of change required to update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0)",
        "Rumble strip wave type":0,
        "Rumble strip wave type#":"Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.",
        "Steering effects strength#":"-10000 to +10000, applies to all steering effects (torque, resistance, static spring, jolt, etc.)",
        "Steering resistance coefficient":-0.1,
        "Steering resistance coefficient#":"Coefficient to use for steering resistance.  Range: -1.0 to 1.0",
        "Steering resistance saturation":1,
        "Steering resistance saturation#":"Saturation value to use for steering resistance.  Range: 0 - 1.0",
        "Steering resistance type":0,
        "Steering resistance type#":"0=use damping, 1=use friction",
        "Steering spring coefficient":0,
        "Steering spring coefficient#":"Static spring effect rate (-1.0 to 1.0)",
        "Steering spring saturation":0.1,
        "Steering spring saturation#":"Static spring effect peak force (0.0 to 1.0)",
        "Steering torque capability":2.4,
        "Steering torque capability#":"The maximum torque capability of the wheel (in Nm, obviously) - WAS 2.5 then 2.3",
        "Steering torque extrap blend":0,
        "Steering torque extrap blend#":"Higher blends of extrapolated value allows driver to feel torque changes even when actual torque exceeds 'input max' (0.0=disables, 1.0=max)",
        "Steering torque extrap time":0.015,
        "Steering torque extrap time#":"Time in seconds to extrapolate steering torque based on current change (Range: 0.001 to 0.050.  To disable, set 'blend' to 0.0)",
        "Steering torque filter":4,
        "Steering torque filter#":"Number of old samples to use to filter torque from vehicle's steering column (0-32, note that higher values increase effective latency)",
        "Steering torque minimum":0.075,
        "Steering torque minimum#":"Minimum torque to apply in either direction to overcome steering wheel's 'FFB deadzone' caused by friction - WAS 0.085",
        "Steering torque per-vehicle mult":1,
        "Steering torque per-vehicle mult#":"Per-vehicle steering column torque multiplier (this is a copy of the .CCH value)",
        "Steering torque sensitivity":0.9,
        "Steering torque sensitivity#":"Sensitivity curve applied to representable torques: 0.0=low 1.0=linear 2.0=high - WAS 0.9 then 0.8",
        "Steering torque zero-speed mult":0.25,
        "Steering torque zero-speed mult#":"Multiplier at zero speed to reduce unwanted oscillation from strong static aligning torque",
    
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
  19. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    You're rambling a bit there, for now I'll say 2 things:

    1. The person making this thread isn't trying to go as fast as possible, he's trying to get rF2 feeling as much like real life as possible to help with his real life driving. Pushing to the limits of any game moves you a little away from what you'd do in real life (especially as a relatively new real life racer), hence the distinction.
    2. I'm well familiar with rF1 rumble pull, and I can't say if I ever really tested whether it did something in rF2. But some 'rumble pull' when you run across it should happen - not because of the canned rumble pull in the controller file, but because part of one tyre (and to some extent, only one of the front tyres) hitting the kerb will create a pull to that side because of the extra 'drag' that situation creates. I personally tried, after asking you that question, running across some kerbs at 2 of the standard tracks with the rumble pull value of a significant magnitude and again with that value reversed, and didn't notice any change at fast or slow speed. So that's why I'm asking where you're feeling it, so I can check for myself if it's actually working.
     
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