Would like to reduce the "arcade game" feel to steering response

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Andrew Nagy, May 22, 2021.

  1. Ef123

    Ef123 Registered

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    You might wanna try Assetto Corsa. There's a great free SR3 mod, and for me it drives as I would expect from a beginner friendly car. Some cars in RF2 have really bad quality and no matter what you do they feel very light and twitchy. I had that exact problem as you and people made many suggestions, that car still feels like crap after years. It was some open wheel Renault. You're just constantly thinking about "What if I spin" one small throttle application and zzziiiup. And real life racing is very far from that.

    Get AC on steam, DL the radical here: https://shaunclarke35.wixsite.com/website/downloads Basically unzip LHD, (left hand drive) folder into your C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\assettocorsa\content\cars folder, voila. You'll have it in the game.

    I am looking forward to the feedback.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2021
  2. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I hate to say this, but I think I just experienced the same thing. The Ginetta LMP1 car, at Road Atlanta. Car feels great, then the steering seems to lose road contact, nothing severe, just not what I would say is normal. Fanatec Club Sport BMW wheel via the 2.5 base. Instead of feeling the tires all the way to the next turn, the wheel seems to ignore the road surface until I either brake or initiate a turn. Default setup on the Ginetta. Think I'll grab the Cadillac and see if it feels the same.
     
  3. Ef123

    Ef123 Registered

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    That's probably understeer
     
  4. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I
    Well I just did a half hour with the Caddy at the same track and the odd feedback did not make an appearance. Wouldn't understeer make itself known as I entered the corner? But that is when my wheel seemed to wake back up. I wonder if it's not the ol Fanatec bug-a-boo that many users reported over the past couple of years.(although not lately it seems) Prior to the Ginetta's lack of feel, for most of the early driving, the response felt normal. I had flatspotted the tires and pitted to replace them. The G-car seems MUCH more prone to flatspotting than the Caddy Dpi. And my wheel got a fairly good shake on the way back to the pits, so much vibration I backed off to reduce the effect on my wheel. But two trips into the pits, once to fix some damage as well, the car, at some point began to feel wrong. Hard to describe. Just a general numbness between corners. Felt fine once I began turning or braking, until the next straight. These days I rarely seem to put long sessions together so I can't say this may not have happened before. At most I did about 20 to 25 minutes in the Ginetta and over 30 in the Caddy.
    The Ginetta 'felt' faster and wanted to be pushed more, again with default setups, who knows how they compare. I was faster with the Ginetta by about 2 seconds and thought I could squeeze another second out of it when the mushy feeling began. Tires were not ballistically over-heated in any event.
    So my two guesses would be the Ginetta tire could be the culprit, but I think more-so, it is a Fanatec hardware issue. Mainly due to the early laps feeling normal to me.
     
  5. mechanic

    mechanic Registered

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    Radical sr1 (most radicals?) have a double motion ratio compared to a normal car. It has a pushrod parallel to the damper connected to a rocker arm at the top. Damper speeds are very high, so valving of the damper should be adjusted to this. I'm not sure which mod we are talking about, but this is probably not modelled like this on rf2. This might be why the values in the mod are very diffent from the actual values.
     
  6. sushi

    sushi Registered

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    Hi,
    i drove a DD1. In my opinion you wasting a lot of potential for a "as planned by rf2"-setting
    in device driver:
    SEN AUTO
    FF (personal preference, 50% is a good starting point)
    LIN OFF (ON means to cut the peak maximum values, the smaller forces are increased, which is not appropriate with a DD)
    NDP 0-20 (more ndp means slower, more damped FFB, this feels more like a deadly damped power steering in a small front wheel drive with 75 hp)
    NFR and NIN less as possible ( for me around 5-10)
    INT 3-5 (depends on car, lower settings result in a vivid, more direct FFB, but can also lead to short, strong maximum peaks, play with FEI or smoothing)
    FEI the higher the better (I would say never go below 80, if necessary go one higher with INT or smoothing)
    FOR 100%
    SPR and DPR (this has no effect on me, as far as I know rf2 does not give such values, so I think it doesn't matter whether it is 0 or 100)
    BLI, SHO, BRF (i don't have that, if your hardware supports it it can be a useful additional effect)

    in game:
    choose the steering wheel profile as basis
    smoothing (lower means more direct FFB, no capping of the maximum values, no rounding of the peaks, no compression of the FFB, I would say choose values from 1-4, play with INT or FEI)
    car specific multiplier (personal preference)
    minimum steering torque (reinforce small forces, if there is no or very little FFB around the middle position, this can give a better feeling, the distinction between small forces is lost because they are raised to a common level, with a DD I would choose max. 1% (for me it's 0)
    steering wheel range -> put the hook on vehicle set -> rf2 selects the steering wheel range based on the vehicle data
     
  7. benborp

    benborp Registered

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    The motion ratio is allowed for in rF2 damper calculations. Mods can use either the effective values of damping as applied through the entire suspension (minus tyre) or the nominal value of the damper unit and then apply the motion ratio to that nominal figure.

    It is one of the issues in trying to establish accurate baseline set-ups with encrypted content. Even if we can often see the exact damper values we can never see if a motion ratio has been applied (either correctly, incorrectly or even bypassed as a means of backward engineering effective damping values).

    The way that rF2 vehicle setup files interact with the vehicle data can also add another layer of confusion. Effectively setup values are defined as a position in an array of possibilities. It is very easy for that array to contain a range of values, particularly when it comes to dampers, that is either erroneous or counter-intuitive, even more so if the garage display uses the convention of incremental 'clicks'.

    The damper values that I was examining (the current rf2 SR3, turns out there is an issue with which black box set-up conundrum we are dealing with) are tough to work with.

    A low narrow range of slow front bump adjustment. A wide high range of slow front rebound adjustment, which starts with values that are like to be unmatched by appropriate available bump values on an aero loaded car.
    The rear values are the opposite. A high and wide bump range and a low and narrow rebound range that only just reaches equivalence with the lower limit of the bump values.

    The default values are mid range for all dampers which results in a default setup with fairly extreme damping characteristics. The suspension histograms generated by the default set are ugly. The adjustment increments are also counter-intuitive leading to a single click making either feather light or gross changes. Regardless of whether the damping forces are applied in line with the spindle or in parallel via a rocker the ranges available are a challenging arrangement with which to find a balanced distribution of damping forces, regardless of whether they may in fact be sufficient.

    A final note on why I think this an important issue for Andrew.
    For much of our sim racing history suspension damping hasn't been a significant factor. We didn't experience the motion of the cars or the approach anywhere the same degree of fidelity that came back through the wheel. We lost out on experiencing the nuances of varying grip and fast, precise responses, but we were also able to use this to our advantage. Our one device of physical feedback was in effect a great big fuzzy, laggy dampening system. Weaker belt driven, gear driven FFB wheels allowed us to exploit set-ups that were under sprung and under damped. We already suffered the slower response and precision that stopped us from appreciating the handling of the car so we had nothing to lose from extracting maximum grip and boosting lap times.
    With the arrival of mass market direct drive wheels and other feedback devices some drivers will want to explore the handling qualities of cars over extracting maximum speed. Damping is a critical aspect of that. Andrew has a priority of replicating his racecar's handling, not pursuing lap time. He also isn't equipped with years of accommodating the foibles of sim racing whereby we all parse one handling characteristic in the sim with one similar but not identical one in the real world. The frustration of not having real suspension geometries and movements is going to be felt more by someone like Andrew than many sim drivers who have in effect been racing on completely knackered shocks most of the time.
     
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  8. Andrew Nagy

    Andrew Nagy Registered

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    Thanks, but at the moment, my only interest with the sim is to act as a practice/training tool between my real-life races, which are always at Atlanta Motorsports Park, in Radical SR1's rented from Primal Racing. My understanding is that AMP is only available on RF2. So even if I find, as you've experienced, that the SR3 in Assetto Corsa drives more realistically than the SR1 in RF2, it not only doesn't it help me, it would only serve to depress me! It is discouraging that after years of effort, you haven't been able to improve upon the light, twitchy feel that I also have. In fact, your description of how your car drives matches mine to a T. I was just thinking last night that after literally thousands of laps on the sim, I have never once been able to save a spin - the nanosecond I feel the car start to get away, it's all over - so very different from how a real car behaves. I don't mean any disrespect to the people who developed RF2 - I'm sure creating a sim game is a monumentally challenging task.
     
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  9. Andrew Nagy

    Andrew Nagy Registered

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    @sushi: Thanks for the thoughtful summary of how you think optimizing my steering settings in Fanatec might help. I'll give it a try, as I have nothing to lose. Just a few questions: 1) What do you mean by "as planned by RF2" in your first sentence? 2) What do you mean by "the hook" in your last sentence? I'm not at home so maybe it will make sense when I get home and open up the game.

    @benborp: You are 100% correct that my goal is definitly not to get the best possible lap time on the sim. In fact, any measures taken by either the game designers, or me as the user, to make the sim car "faster" at the expense of realism is completley counterproductive to my goal of using the sim to help me improve in the real car. By the way, I don't mean to imply that RF2 is "bad" - it takes a very high level of skill to drive the sim car, at least the one I've been driving, because of its hyper-sensitivity, and I can see how it can be rewarding to master it. My issue is simply that it isn't optimal at this point as a training tool for real-life racing, which is my only interest.

    I see you've sent me a detailed IM with some recommendations. I'll give them a try. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2021
  10. benborp

    benborp Registered

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    There absolutely is a way to make what you have work better for you - whatever the underlying issues. The only issue to work around may be the extra grip you find on outlap. I'm sure we can get performance in later laps up to standard - but the tyres might always offer more than is realistic before they get up to racing pressures.

    Compared to what you have invested so far in the sim side of things you are most of the way there.
     
  11. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I have the same problem, but only with certain older cars. Usually....and that does not mean all the time...one can save spins in rF2. It may be that your real butt in the real car helps you sense the loss of grip, while the sim can only communicate that via a force feedback wheel and sometimes sound. It is a matter of perhaps slowing down to train your hands to feel the wheel or your eyes to see the spin coming. So instead of pushing, pushing, all the time, try driving at 90%. That might give you the tiny bit of extra time to see/feel the spin building. Once you get acclimatized to catching a spin at the slower pace, then back to finding your real groove.
     
  12. sushi

    sushi Registered

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    Hi Andrew,
    by that I mean a driving experience that is unchanged as possible, so it corresponds to that which is directly out of the sim, f.e. in the device driver things like LIN, NDP, NFR, NIN, BLI, SHO, BRF are no programmed outputs from the SIM, the resulting FFB output is generated in the driver, I think it is good to start with an FFB that is as unchanged as possible, just as the programmers thought. They did a good job for my taste. Then you begin to make adjustments according to your own taste.

    Hook: i don't know a better word for it, i meant switch "vehicle set" on.
     
  13. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    You are indeed a very important sirmacer at this time. Let us know then in the future what you will manage to observe, perceive and understand about how this particular simulation and reality connection works.

    Meanwhile, I hope you'll finally be able to digest what whole forum is attempting to tell to you by now, about where your issues coming from, as it seems you still haven't caught on.
     
  14. Daniele Vidimari

    Daniele Vidimari Registered

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    That's the case with every official car and also mods in rF2. The outlap is always better because you have the lowest tires pressure possible which give to your car the highest grip available. It's indeed known that in rF2 the fastest hotlaps are made doing really slow out laps in order to keep the pressures low, only on few exceptions you would give to the tires a bit of heat.

    Then there is also the huge thermal degradation of these tires, the other big factor that makes the car worst lap by lap even starting from the second lap.
    You can't do nothing to fix these behaviours, you can just work on the setup to make the car a bit more balanced and to make the tires more cold as possible, in order to reduce thermal degradation and the pressures.
     
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  15. Andrew Nagy

    Andrew Nagy Registered

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    Thanks for that explanation! That's very interesting, and I'm glad I finally understand it. It is very odd, though, because in the real world, the cars' behavior on the warm-up lap(s) is significantly worse than it is after the car has warmed up, because the tires are cold, the brakes are cold, the engine isn't up to full power because it's not up to temp yet, etc. I also haven't noticed any change in the car's behavior between the first timed lap and the 20th - it feels more like a binary out lap/all other laps difference. But in any event, thanks very much for clearing up this mystery.
     
  16. Highlandwalker

    Highlandwalker Registered

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    I certainly don't think this applies to the S397 Nissan GT500, as the tyres warm up after about two laps, grip increases.
     
  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    You cannot generalise like that. I mean you literally cannot know that to be true. You make it sound like an inherent "rF2 thing".

    The raw grip the rubber generates at different temperatures is determined in the tyre file. The tyre database tyres already punish very low temperatures to a greater degree than the (setup-limited) low pressures can compensate for. You certainly can't claim to be sure that some mods don't take this even further.

    The thermal deg threshold, the accumulated heat history above that threshold required to reach each step of deg, and the grip effect at each stage of deg, are all defined in the tyre. So there's the mod argument again.

    I concede it's possible with a lot of experience driving a car to get a feel for a bigger grip reduction after more heated running, though there's also more physical abrasion as well then (somewhat represented by the displayed wear percentage, but changing the style of use could change the wear pattern and effect). It's also possible to devise some tests to measure the effect, taking the variables into account. Not sure you'd bother with that though.

    If it's only anecdotal, all bets are off.

    @Andrew Nagy for "feel" the absolutely most important things are your controls - are they linear, does your wheel rotation match the car. If those are off you are throwing darts in the dark.

    Then, and only then, start talking about the mod, and the actual mod you're using. There's a free SR3 included with the game, if you're using anything else you can basically ignore any discussion about the car or setup.
     
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  18. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Back a few years ago there were multiple entire threads dedicated to "you can't control slides in rF2". Now it's the opposite, people are saying rF2 is too easy to control over the limit, to the point of it's actually easier to drive rF2 a bit over the limit than at 95%.

    I have been on both side of this argument, I used to find it almost impossible to control slides, then I started to spend a heck of a lot of time on the skid pad at Lime Rock playing with limit handling and eventually holding oversteer for minutes at a time (makes you really dizzy!). Now after many hours of rF2 and having the ffb dialed in the way I like, I'm kind of complaining sometimes that it's too easy and not edgy enough. I obviously still spin but I generally find it pretty easy to control slides, to the point of holding full throttle powerslides on corner exit (kind of does depend on the car though).

    For me the key is (when I get it right), I correct the slide when it happens, not a split second after, WHEN it happens. You can kind of feel when it's going to happen and you've got to antisipate it and be ready. Then, probably more importantly, you have the initial correction, but the save (the straightening up of the wheel) needs to be very fast and very accurate (If you watch your saves in a replay in slow motion, you'll probably notice that the front tires were not pointed in exactly the correct direction, that can be disastrous!) It's not easy but it comes with time.

    Also, in regards to driving in rF2 in general, I like what Scott Mansell from the Driver61 YouTube channell says about real life driving "Be in touch with and communicating with the limit at all times". Basically, be going a touch over the limit, then a touch under, then over, under etc etc, etc, rather than just trying to always be at 99%. That has personally worked for me to get fast lap times and feel in control, although imo it lacks the beauty of being smooth and staying a fraction under the limit at all times. It's counter intuitive, but for me pushing harder is easier (for example I tend to "stab" at the throttle rather than a smooth steady input, I'm always asking the car 10 times a second "where is the limit", rather than just easing up to it). It's a pretty hectik driving style and it's not for everyone, sometimes I even don't enjoy it and I prefer to be steady and smooth.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2021
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  19. Andrew Nagy

    Andrew Nagy Registered

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    When you ask whether the wheel rotation matches the rotation of the car, do you simply mean, "Does the car rotate the expected amount in the game when I turn the wheel x degrees"? If so, I would say that I haven't noticed otherwise, at least at low speeds. But near the limit of adhesion, the sim car responds more to very small steering inputs than the real car, making it harder to control than the real car.

    I was initially using the free SR3 included in the game, and found it very hard to control as well. But since I drive SR1's in real life, as opposed to SR3's, my coach found an SR1 for me (I have no idea where or how). It gives lap times that are on average close to what I achieve in the real car (although with vastly more lap-to-lap variation).
     
  20. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Go into the display settings and turn on the steering wheel. Then watch if it matches yours.

    @Andrew Nagy ps. Since your mod is basically "unknown" at this point, the wheel rotation being correct doesn't guarantee the settings are right either. It also means no one can vouch for the mod behaviour, unless they are familiar with the one you have.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2021

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