Workshop Discussion..continue here...

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Woodee, Nov 26, 2015.

  1. Euskotracks

    Euskotracks Registered

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    I was also talking in general. If you are not the author you should not upload anything to Steam. That's it.

    I am not a lawyer and I don't care about licensing anything because I make no money out of this. I do it for fun. But if the community has no respect about such an easy to follow rule I will certainly stop making anything for the public. I would say that it is the same case for many other modding teams.

    So dont be an smart ass please.

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  2. monoplazas_RR

    monoplazas_RR Registered

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  3. Nuno Lourenço

    Nuno Lourenço Registered

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    Here, there and all over the place... But here its reaching too high levels unfortunately...


    If you do it for fun as you say below without interest in make money with that it should not be a problem since who edited keep the original credits too. We start from the idea that a updated track is better than the original so what really you intend too? Stop evolution? Seems a bad start to me.


    Update and keep the original credits as well is not a lack of respect. You should see it the oposite. If the updater used your track its because is the best out there to start with.

    Everybody in this forum seems to be blind by something that I did not see for long time. It look like a lot of mod makers are insecure about they work or something like that and afraid that someone else receive the credits for work that original author as did.

    To finish my statement keep in mind what I said before: This question should not be a problem since who updated keep the original credits too

    Happy new year all :)
     
  4. Euskotracks

    Euskotracks Registered

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    I simply disagree Nuno. When we used your version of Zandvoort for our DTM championship I found an error in the AIW that prevented Delta Best plugin working correctly.

    When I fixed it I sent you the corrected AIW rather than releasing a corrected version. I think it is the correct way. Some old modders might not be accessible at the moment but we all know pretty much each other in today's scenario.

    I would understand that if a modder dies, we would like to continue his legacy but it is not the case that we are talking about, and you know that.

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  5. Marcel Offermans

    Marcel Offermans Administrator Staff Member

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    We simply don't agree on this. That is fine, but don't try to make a rule out of your personal opinion. And don't start calling me names, that is simply being rude.
     
  6. Euskotracks

    Euskotracks Registered

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    It is not my personal opinion.
    As I already said Tuttle already clarified it. Do you want me to review the thread and quote him?

    And sorry Marcel if you didn't like what I told you but you were being such. Talking about legal issues trying to justify what IMO is unjustified when you seem to have not read steam workshop terms of use.

    I appreciate your contribution to the simracing community but you are not helping much this time with such a "do what you want" attitude.

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  7. Marcel Offermans

    Marcel Offermans Administrator Staff Member

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    No need, I will do it for you:

    The bold part is what we're discussing here. If an author want to tell the community what is and what is not allowed, put a proper license on that content. If you can't be bothered by that, then don't complain if people do not know what is and what is not allowed.

    Thanks for recognising my contribution (I'm assuming you're aware that I created the Steam integration for rFactor 2). I am trying to explain to you what you should do if you don't want people to use your work in ways you don't want them to: be explicit about what they can or cannot do by adding a license. That is not even specific to the workshop, it relates to anything you share anywhere. For the record, I contribute a lot of my time to open source software development, so I'm well aware of the issues here. Licensing is not fun, but it is necessary. In fact, like I said before, without one formally nobody is even allowed to use your work.
     
  8. Nuno Lourenço

    Nuno Lourenço Registered

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    Yes you did (And after all I never repacked another version, shame on me...) but in my POV that would be fine if you uploaded another version of that simple saying,

    "Zandvoort v1.00" - original version converted by Nuno Lourenço. (remember that I'm not the original author but even being was the same thing for me)

    Changelog
    -...
    -...

    For me this kind of action is more than enought to keep things simple and flowing... This was enought to give some credit to me that converted it in first place and for you that gladly updated it. Its so simple man that I can't really understand why must of you guys are complaining about...

    Everybody needs to take in mind that when sharing something in the internet, for free or not, it gives acess to everyone to do what they want too. That may be a problem specially for paid content but in this case? for free content?

    This not aply to ripped content from paid games. You won't see that Zandvoort uploaded to there by me, but when I shared it I was aware that from that moment I was not the only one with acess to that. Simple...

    Keep it simple m8, its just what we, as community, need :)
     
  9. Euskotracks

    Euskotracks Registered

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    Sorry Marcel if you are telling me that in order for someone who is making free content for the community needs to license its work so that people respect him and do not modify it without authors permission.

    If so, as I said, the best thing is to stop uploading anything.

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  10. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    ...and neither it was my opinion. I just copy/paste the agreement which is pretty clear;

    You represent and warrant to us that you have sufficient rights in all User Generated Content to grant Valve and other affected parties the licenses described under A. and B. above or in any license terms specific to the applicable Workshop-Enabled App or Workshop page. This includes, without limitation, any kind of intellectual property rights or other proprietary or personal rights affected by or included in the User Generated Content. In particular, with respect to Workshop Contributions, you represent and warrant that the Workshop Contribution was originally created by you (or, with respect to a Workshop Contribution to which others contributed besides you, by you and the other contributors, and in such case that you have the right to submit such Workshop Contribution on behalf of those other contributors).

    Cheers guys and happy new year everyone! :)
     
  11. Euskotracks

    Euskotracks Registered

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    So Tuttle, please clarify:

    A. if I need to license my work somewhere where I need to explicitly say that I don't want my content or any modification of it uploaded to Steam Workshop by noone else not belonging to Euskotracks?

    B. I dont need to do anything of that. Noone should upload any of my stuff unless explicitly permission was granted.

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  12. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    B.

    Point here is the Valve agreement is NOT between you and other users (license of use), potentially gonna upload your stuff to workshop, but between the Workshop subscriber and contributions (aka MODs) he would like to upload.

    In other words, is not you, the Author, being asked to produce a license to access Workshop as you have just to be the Author of the contribution to get all rights to upload your work.

    Valve, at the time you agree, it's kinda taking control on your contribution (just in the form of the Workshop Subscription service, see licenses A and B in the Valve agreement) and to do that they have to be sure you are the author because this is the only legal way for them, to take such control.

    Said that, I think Marcel is suggesting to introduce a license inside your mod to clarify you explicitly don't agree to any other usage than just play that mod, but Valve is not asking you anything. They are asking Workshop users to have all rights to upload a contribution.

    Of course this is not gonna change a thing about your rights.

    EDIT: short and straight version;

    if you are not the Author of the contribution and/or you don't have any right on this - you CAN NOT upload that contribution. That's because Valve CAN NOT take control (Workshop Subs. Licenses A and B of the agreement) on contributions without the explicit agreement from the owner.
     
  13. Woodee

    Woodee Registered

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    Just wanted to point out it's "originally created by you OR....." If there is no licence on the content then it is deemed public domain surely?

    I think this discussion will make others tighten up the descriptions they have on their packed mods to include a licence (creative commons or whatever you want). This is a good thing :)
     
  14. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    No, just read what's after that "OR".

    If I do a picture of a bird and then post that picture on this thread, you CAN'T pick that picture and use this on a commercial site, a news paper, a bird seed package or whatever medium you want. Doesn't matter if this picture has been posted on the web. Valve and Steam are commercial platform. They DO money with that platform and Workshop is part of that business. Infact licenses A and B, Workshop section, of the agreement are exactly telling you they are gonna take control of submitted contribution.

    Valve is just applying a very basic rule; they are offering that Workshop service inside Steam, and they need a proper license agreement to take control over Contributions.

    Nobody in earth, apart the mod author and/OR other owners (like someone who worked on that same mod who has the rights to manage it, or who gave you explicit permission...) can give that license to Valve, to release/host/distribute that contribution.

    As author of my assets (talking in general, forget about ISI for a moment), I really don't have to do anything with my stuff to see my rights respected. In fact, if you upload my assets on workshop, without my permission, I can ask Valve to remove it because the infringement...and that's just proving I'm the Author (pretty easy to do with file sources, documentation etc.).

    I know you can do whatever you want with the "web stuff" but here it's different. Valve is a kolossus and all they are asking for is YOU having ALL RIGHTS to give them the license to do THIS (A and B):


    A. General Provisions


    "User Generated Content" means any content you make available to other users through your use of multi-user features of Steam, or to Valve or its affiliates through your use of the Content and Services or otherwise.


    You grant Valve and its affiliates the worldwide, non-exclusive, right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, transcode, translate, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and publicly perform, your User Generated Content, and derivative works of your User Generated Content, in connection with the operation and promotion of the Steam site. This license is granted to Valve for the entire duration of the intellectual property rights and may be terminated if Valve is in breach of the license and has not cured such breach within fourteen (14) days from receiving notice from you sent to the attention of the Valve Legal Department at the applicable Valve address noted on this Privacy Policy page. The termination of said license does not affect the rights of any sub-licensees pursuant to any sub-license granted by Valve prior to termination of the license. Valve is the sole owner of the derivative works created by Valve from your Content, and is therefore entitled to grant licenses on these derivative works. If you use Valve cloud storage, you grant us a license to store your information as part of that service. We may place limits on the amount of storage you may use.


    If you provide Valve with any feedback or suggestions about Steam, the Content and Services, or any Valve products or services, Valve is free to use the feedback or suggestions however it chooses, without any obligation to account to you.


    B. Content Uploaded to the Steam Workshop


    Some games or applications available on Steam ("Workshop-Enabled Apps") allow you to create User Generated Content based on or using the Workshop-Enabled App, and to submit that User Generated Content (a “Workshop Contribution”) to one or more Steam Workshop web pages. Workshop Contributions can be viewed by the Steam community, and for some categories of Workshop Contributions users may be able to interact with, download or purchase the Workshop Contribution. In some cases, Workshop Contributions may be considered for incorporation by Valve or a third-party developer into a game or into a Subscription Marketplace.


    You understand and agree that Valve is not obligated to use, distribute, or continue to distribute copies of any Workshop Contribution and reserves the right, but not the obligation, to restrict or remove Workshop Contributions for any reason.


    Specific Workshop-Enabled Apps or Workshop web pages may contain special terms (“App-Specific Terms”) that supplement or change the terms set out in this Section. In particular, where Workshop Contributions are distributed for a fee, App-Specific Terms will address how revenue may be shared. Unless otherwise specified in App-Specific Terms (if any), the following general rules apply to Workshop Contributions.


    Workshop Contributions are Subscriptions, and therefore you agree that any Subscriber receiving distribution of your Workshop Contribution will have the same rights to use your Workshop Contribution (and will be subject to the same restrictions) as are set out in this Agreement for any other Subscriptions.
    Notwithstanding the license described in Section 6.A., Valve will only have the right to modify or create derivative works from your Workshop Contribution in the following cases: (a) Valve may make modifications necessary to make your Contribution compatible with Steam and the Workshop functionality or user interface, and (b) Valve or the applicable developer may make modifications to Workshop Contributions that are accepted for in-Application distribution as it deems necessary or desirable to enhance gameplay.
    You may, in your sole discretion, choose to remove a Workshop Contribution from the applicable Workshop pages. If you do so, Valve will no longer have the right to use, distribute, transmit, communicate, publicly display or publicly perform the Workshop Contribution, except that (a) Valve may continue to exercise these rights for any Workshop Contribution that is accepted for distribution in-game or distributed in a manner that allows it to be used in-game, and (b) your removal will not affect the rights of any Subscriber who has already obtained access to a copy of the Workshop Contribution.
    Except where otherwise provided in App-Specific Terms, you agree that Valve’s consideration of your Workshop Contribution is your full compensation, and you are not entitled to any other rights or compensation in connection with the rights granted to Valve and to other Subscribers.
     
  15. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    Of course. If you put a specific License file in your mods things are different.

    If you want my opinion, I think you would see a VERY small portion of scratch made content modders giving you a creative commons license like that. Basically losing any control over their works.

    At the end of the day it's all about respecting modders and the very hard job done. Again, forget ISI for a moment and let me talk as a simple modder; I bought every single license for every single piece of software I use. Same for hardware. That's a huge amount of money already. I invested 3/4 or my entire time to do these things (textures, 3D models, mapping, experimenting, optimizing etc etc). What's wrong with respecting the Author rights? This is 1 million times harder and expensive than doing a picture of a bird...but rights are the same. A news paper can't pick that picture and put on a page without asking permission as for Valve can't pick that mod (the one you are uploading) without getting the same permission in the form of the agreement. They are just protecting themselves

    I really respect artists releasing stuff with free licenses, commons and open stuff.... but this doesn't means it works like that for everyone. I wouldn't never do this, for example and I would love a world where people just say thanks for free contents - instead even asking the access to any rights related to what I'm releasing for free. And btw, this has nothing to do with the Valve agreement which has been already explained dozen of times already...:)

    Also, the proof showing how bad is to upload mods on Workshop without rights/permission, it's written in stones, along that long thread.

    Now I found pretty disrespectful that trend to push everything on the "law" side. It's not just about respecting laws and agreements. It's about respecting people giving you stuff to enjoy for free. Just let them the freedom and the rights to keep control over their works.

    Internet is being a such selfish place where all arts are losing every single bit of value and respect.... And that's just because people have plenty of stuff to access. People tends to forget there are not robots yet doing these things for you....but humans. How bad.
     
  16. Woodee

    Woodee Registered

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    Believe me, I'm not trying to "split hairs" here... I think it would be good practice to protect their work with licences if it is so precious to them. Even go as far as getting encryption keys from ISI to protect their work even further. If the mod has no name or licence then how can it be attributed to anyone? Modders should be proud to put their name on these things. This makes it easier to trace duplicates of tracks already created (how many Monza's do we really need?).

    I am glad there can be a good open discussion about these subjects in order to educate myself and those around us that do not know these things already.

    This is why I have tried to encourage the community aspect.... pushing things out into the community under a creative commons licence (reuse without modify and no commercial use) like objects and textures and things. Encouraging the community aspect of the community. Means we work together right? :)
     
  17. Tuttle

    Tuttle Technical Art Director - Env Lead

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    This is a such great thing you did, absolutely. Sharing is a big and very important part for every community but I'm trying to say that Workshop thingy it's a completely different story.

    Sharing it's always something needs AT LEAST 2 parts agreeing to work. If just one, it's stealing. :p

    Workshop should be for modders what is Flickr for photographers. Pages and places where you present your creations, keep them updates, produce changelogs, talk with users, sharing opinions etc...

    It's not really like a link of a mod, posted in a thread, or mediafire. At all.

    There is a BIG BIG BIG medium there, which is Valve/Steam. That WorkShop name speaks for itself. :)

    I'm the first who'd love to see that place growing fast and good and being fat of contents....but still, the solution is not me or you grabbing all rF2 contents from the web and moving up to Workshop. Apart breaking all rules and regulation with Valve, this would be just a big and wrong move because of the mess it's gonna create on the long term. Clones, illegal stuff, non-authorized updates with same numeration as official mods, mismatches, arguments between userbase and modders because of that...etc etc. etc...

    Encouraging the community to make mods it's GREAT! Encouraging the community to go over the modders rights because we want all mods up to Workshop as soon as possible.... it's not so great. Imho. :)

    I don't know mate...I sometimes see myself like such a pedant bulldog (yes I'm) but if you think, aren't these points really ABC basics to make things working in a peaceful and respectful way for everyone?... It's really a matter of community.. :)
     
  18. Woodee

    Woodee Registered

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    I understand you :)
     
  19. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    I just posted this in the Steam thread only to see this thread later so I'll post here.

    Not really getting this Steam Workshop thing...

    I just found out about 4 or 5 official RF2 updates. I logged into Steam Workshop and nothing is downloading. I thought we were all automatically subscribed to ISI content???
     

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