Wierd/reversed FFB only some cars

Discussion in 'Technical & Support' started by tax, Jul 31, 2018.

  1. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    @Lazza if i've understood correctly
    • You changed the minimum torque and the Steering effects strength parameters
    • Saved the changes in your json
    • Loaded your json to the controller.json
    • And the minimum torque had changed, but the steering effects strength, no?
    I don't understand this. This is really weird.
    I reinstalled my OS a couple of weeks ago and i had to reverse the forces of my wheel and it worked for me.
     
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @lagg Yep, exactly that. I can see the minimum torque got passed through to the player\controller.JSON file, but the steering effects strength changed back to -10000 (I had edited it to 10000, as it still is in my custom profile). Maybe there's something strange on my end that's stopping it working properly.

    It's actually annoying because I've convinced myself the Clio (and others) will still feel weird with reverse FFB, but I can't test it myself.
     
  3. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    It doesn't make any sense for me. I've done it several times in different computers for people in our league, and always worked.
    Have you tried to change the parameter directly in the controller.json? The rF2 has to be stopped, because otherwise it will rewrite the file again when you close the game.
    Another thing that you can try is to delete the controller.json to force rF2 to create a new one (make a copy before).
     
  4. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Yep, that's how I first did it, then I tried what you'd suggested earlier with the profiles. I never use the profile load/save feature, never have in rF1 or 2, so I'm well versed in when I can and can't make changes to the JSONs (but welcome the note anyway, just so we're clear). I just tried again and left the controller.JSON open in an editor, so I could click on it and see if the file had been updated and whether that value had changed. As expected it did get updated when loading the game, but the value stayed positive as I'd edited it. As soon as I clicked on Race, the file was updated and now the value is negative.

    Ok, did that, it loaded up a default with keyboard controls (settings -> controls still has my custom profile name down the bottom, but no way it's loaded - got FFB smoothing and everything back to default). That has 10000 as standard. Clicked Race, file got updated again, but no change. No controls working of course.

    So, back to main menu, assigned ONLY steer left and steer right, FFB is set to Wheel as standard, click Race... and now it's updated to -10000. :confused:
     
  5. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    Bufff. Really strange. :eek:
    I can't think of anything more. Sorry
     
  6. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @lagg No worries mate, I'll play around in the coming days and see if I can work out what's going on.

    Hopefully the OT can get some more light on it.
     
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  7. fsuarez79

    fsuarez79 Registered

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    So what's the point here?
    @lagg already said "If the problem is the tipical effect of the FWD cars, to reverse the forces is not going to solve the problem."

    I've had my FFB inverted in AMS and it's impossible to drive like that. rF2 FWD cars are completely drivable. I don't know of any sim in which you use your wheel one way for RWD/AWD and have to invert it for FWD. FFB is either inverted or it isn't (for all cars).
    Front wheel torque makes them feel completely different (and excessive if you ask me) but has nothing to do with inverted FFB.

    Maybe @Marcel Offermans can confirm or tell me I'm crazy
     
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  8. vancstar

    vancstar Registered

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    This one: Formula 1975 League Edition
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfi...481743&searchtext=Formula+1975+League+Edition

    Several cars require the FFB to be reversed as they did in rF1 which is fine as I said it is dependent on how the suspension and steering rack points are located with each other. I just edit my .json file in rF2 as I would have done with rF1 but in rF1 I could use the slider.

    To me it has nothing to do with FWD or RWD just the location of the steering rack in the suspension files for each car. Lazza you may be lucky to have only driven cars with it in the same position so it was never apparent to you but it is a problem on some cars without a doubt.

    What would be interesting would be to have a look at the UI form rF1 and see how it was setup to include the slider and then make that for rF2, well for someone who knew what they were doing anyway ;) like That Lazza bloke :p I am sure he could add it in nps :D
     
  9. fsuarez79

    fsuarez79 Registered

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    @vancstar
    Yes it has nothing to do with FWD/RWD but the OP is stating the FFB is weird/inverted in cars which all happen to be FWD, and he makes it more evident by saying the Subaru in the BTCC mod is the only one that feels OK (which happens to be the only RWD car of the pack).

    The point I'm trying to make is that the weird feeling of FWD cars in rF2 is due to front wheel torque and has nothing to do with the FFB being inverted.

    What you're saying is that there may be some mods which do have inverted FFB (which I must say if there are, I haven't encountered any).
     
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  10. stonec

    stonec Member

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    @tax Next time you drive, make this quick test, go through a corner with one of these FWD cars, but don't apply any throttle at any point. Does the FFB still feel reversed? I bet it won't.
     
  11. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @fsuarez79 I think there's little doubt the OP is experiencing 'strange', but normal for rF2, FWD behaviour. We (which includes you) really covered that in the first half page of this thread, I did again make mention of it while the thread then got sidetracked into reversing FFB and all that, and I still hope @tax either tests the feedback without throttle input or is able to reverse his FFB and see that reversed FFB feels much worse than the FWD cars do at the moment (except maybe on-throttle, but it would be poor compensation for having the wheel flopping left and right the rest of the time).

    I dragged it off-topic in discussing reversed FFB, and FFB-reversing, with @vancstar , and then trying to work out why I can't. I'm still flummoxed at this point but it's not really relevant. What the thread is waiting for is @tax to either reverse the FFB and see how that feels, or see that most of the time (including some on-throttle) the FFB is not reversed and feels fine. He started the thread with 'weird', and I can see how throttle input makes the wheel pull instead of push, which I guess is where 'reversed' came from (which obviously got vancstar's attention and started that whole side conversation).

    On that note, @vancstar I tried that mod, and checked with 4 different cars though I'm guessing LE might mean they're all the same physically anyway, and my FFB is fine. So either something is broken-but-not-broken my end, or something is wrong at your end. I can't reverse my FFB and so far it seems I don't have to. I do understand the whole concept of the steering arm position relative to the steered axle, and how that affected realfeel in rF1, it's not something I've tested with rF2 but I've also not seen mention of it in the modding section so I just assumed it wasn't an issue. If this behaviour is different between you and me (and maybe lagg, since he can reverse his FFB too, but that could be a second topic) maybe there's something about different file versions, or my controller or software setup is having a strange but actually welcome effect.

    Hope that clears that up.
     
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  12. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    I don't say that it's necessary to change the sense of the FFB, depending on the car (if it's FWD or RWD). Maybe i wasn't clear. English isn't my native language, sorry.
    I was referring to the tipical effect of some FWD (the Civic is a good examble). When you throtle, the car rises in the front part and loose grip in the front wheels. At this moment, the force decreases in the steering wheel and it seems that the FFB is inverted.

    Edit: I don't say that the FFB is bad in this situation. For me is OK, but i seems that it's not OK for others, because this subject appears from time to time in the forum
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  13. vancstar

    vancstar Registered

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    @ Lazza , as long as you or whomever is happy wit the FFB in the car that you or whomever is driving with whatever wheel then I guess it is a mute point but I know that different cars feel wrong with the FFB and switching it makes it feels more correct to me from a drivers point of view having driven a lot of different race cars ;) and it has always been clear to me that this is clearly an issue but I just fix it at my end and will continue to ;) , it is a interesting that some people find it isn't an issue so it has been good discussion point at least.
     
  14. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @vancstar it's certainly interesting that our setups are producing different results, I wasn't expecting anyone to have to reverse the FFB and you obviously weren't expecting anyone to not have to, so we've both learned something and who knows if it's supposed to be like that or not :D
     
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  15. Daniel Surace

    Daniel Surace Registered

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    i think @stonec said it pretty right and i agree with him, take your foot off the accelerator and the effect disappears there is no pulling into corners. i too have a T300, and for most you can feel the torque steer specifically on front wheel drives in corners.

    There are a few settings that tend to help with the pulling into corners and one is Differentials and caster. play with those and that effect will go as the Diff is on your drive (front in this case)wheels which is your turning wheel. Reversing effects in controller file isn't the right way about it IMO.
     
  16. vancstar

    vancstar Registered

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    But saying that Daniel the feeling of the steering wheel falling into the direction of the corner is also not correct at all to me, as the wheel when spinning on its axle as you drive forward wants to naturally pull back to spin inline with the cars suspension which is usually a straight ahead direction, you can get different effects when sliding as the car moves around of course through the wheel. So setting it up to make it give you that feeling is optimal. I have found it not be isolated to FWD cars and being on or off the power but simply a case of it feeling unnatural so I set it to suit how I think it feels, I do think that it should be still in the UI so we can adjust it easier. Car setup will have some affect obviously so it will be more or less pronounced but... we are using a sim so it should be right or at least able to be easily adjusted to be right in the UI. Sorry for side tracking the thread so much but good to hear everyone's point of view.
     
  17. RaceNut

    RaceNut Registered

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    Torque Steer is a real-world consequence in FWD cars, especially in those with more powerful engines but, I feel like it's overdone or out of balance with the weight-shift taking place during acceleration in rF2. I can't say how much of this FFB-effect is correct due to lack of experience in such racing-cars but, have experienced it in a couple of road cars we've owned.

    When using a DD-wheel, it's even more so and I find that I have to greatly reduce the FFB strength to compensate when driving most of the FWD cars otherwise, the torque-steer has the car driving me. In such cases, I may need to apply much higher levels of dampening to reduce the disparity between self-aligning torque forces and self-aligning forces.

    Some other factors that contribute to making things more complex are the amount of power-steering assist that is being applied as well as the natural dampening of the mechanical systems. Road cars are generally heavily dampened and assisted so torque-steer is going to be quite subdued compared to FWD race-cars but, I also have to imagine that some steps would have to be taken to correct excessive torque-steer in RL based on how the FWD cars in rF2 behave.

    It seems to me, the more complex the tire-model, the more challenging simulating FWD steering behavior becomes due to variations in grip-state.
     
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  18. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @RaceNut I definitely think the 'grip state' as you've called it has a lot to do with it. And unfortunately I think actual 'torque steer' isn't really a factor, and I doubt differing torque effects to the front wheels is modelled. Even if it is the loss of grip inwards steering pull completely dwarfs it.

    But also for me, the only FWD car I tried in response to this thread was the Clio, and it's obviously outdated now, so maybe there are improvements that already can/have been made? Still seems like an inherent behaviour so not sure how it would go.

    @vancstar I think we need to separate your sometimes-reversed FFB (which may be normal in the game, I'm not ruling that out) from FWD cars. You mentioned reversed-FFB early in this thread but it's not related to the phenomenon being discussed by the OP, which is exclusive to FWD cars. You, and I assume many others, have to reverse your FFB to make some cars' steering forces correct, which I'm sure is annoying and I can understand why you'd want to have an in-game remedy for that (and as far as UI goes, I'd bet the FFB strength slider referenced in the UI is the same as was in rF1 (same name), so it wouldn't be possible to adjust it to a slider that allows for negative values - that's all on the game code side of things).

    But, the FWD effect is different. The wheel centres itself properly except when applying throttle and losing traction. Reversing the FFB won't fix it, it will only make the wrong part feel more right, and will ruin everything else. So a reverse FFB option, though useful for you with various cars, won't fix the issue that started this thread.
     
  19. doddynco

    doddynco Registered

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    I can't believe this thread is still going. Front wheel drive cars can torque steer and that is what you can feel through your game wheel. The end.
     
  20. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Well.. no. But it's not reversed FFB either, so I hope we do move away from discussing that.

    Torque steer as its own thing is one sided, whereas what we're feeling is either direction and lasts longer than 'normal' torque steering would. In fact the parts that are involved in torque steer aren't modelled in rF2.

    But as far as the tyres spinning up / losing grip differently, and affecting the steering because they're the steering wheels, it does make some sense (and is a sort of torque steer, if unrealistic in its scale), but I wonder if something lacking in the modelling is making the effect stronger than it should be. It definitely feels like the FFB is overreacting in some way, but if there was such a major problem with the tyres (and the forces they feed back into the suspension) you would think RWD cars wouldn't feel great either - unless it's a moment around the vertical axis only that is being produced, and having little effect obviously on rear tyres that can't rotate that way. I can only speculate, I don't have sufficient knowledge of the real-life mechanics at work here or how fully the game is doing things. I know that some of the parts defined in the chassis file have mass and inertia but I think not all do, and some friction could be missing too. Are these important? I don't know...
     

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