Why is single seat cars steering unstable in rfactor2

G

gringhos

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As a veteran user of GPL, GT Legends, rfactor 1 and a past single seat racer (1970's - woops that ages me!) I am a bit shocked by the very odd straight line steering in most of rfactor2's single seat racers, apart from F3. Somehow, someone at ISI seems to have got it into his head that historic single seat race cars have inherently unstable straight line steering. I drove formula 3 and other single seat cars in the mid 70's and every car I drove was rock solid in straight line stability. It seems to me that only the F3 cars in rfactor demonstrate this stability. The brabham, F2 and F1 cars are all over the place.

There seems to be a misconception that these cars have loose steering arms or track rods, because while going straight at speed, there is a kind of dead spot in the steering where the front end wanders all over the place for no logical reason. This year I attended the wonderful Goodwood revival meeting where I saw the entire Lotus historical suite of single seat cars from the lotus 25 to the 49, in addition to formula 1, 2, 3, cars made by Cooper, Brabham, and BRM. Speaking to some of the drivers, I asked about castor, steering stability and straight line stability. Every single driver I spoke to confirmed that unless the setup was way off, nearly all of these cars were very stable in a straight line, and under braking.

So why is there this awful and artificial feeling of instability in the rfactor2 single seaters, f3 excepted? Is it that someone at ISI really believes this needs to be imposed in order to make the cars "authentic"? If so, they've got it badly wrong. Or have I missed some kind of extreme castor or other setting that fixes this. Thanks for any useful advice.
 
gringhos said:
As a veteran user of GPL, GT Legends, rfactor 1 and a past single seat racer (1970's - woops that ages me!) I am a bit shocked by the very odd straight line steering in most of rfactor2's single seat racers, apart from F3. Somehow, someone at ISI seems to have got it into his head that historic single seat race cars have inherently unstable straight line steering. I drove formula 3 and other single seat cars in the mid 70's and every car I drove was rock solid in straight line stability. It seems to me that only the F3 cars in rfactor demonstrate this stability. The brabham, F2 and F1 cars are all over the place.

There seems to be a misconception that these cars have loose steering arms or track rods, because while going straight at speed, there is a kind of dead spot in the steering where the front end wanders all over the place for no logical reason. This year I attended the wonderful Goodwood revival meeting where I saw the entire Lotus historical suite of single seat cars from the lotus 25 to the 49, in addition to formula 1, 2, 3, cars made by Cooper, Brabham, and BRM. Speaking to some of the drivers, I asked about castor, steering stability and straight line stability. Every single driver I spoke to confirmed that unless the setup was way off, nearly all of these cars were very stable in a straight line, and under braking.

So why is there this awful and artificial feeling of instability in the rfactor2 single seaters, f3 excepted? Is it that someone at ISI really believes this needs to be imposed in order to make the cars "authentic"? If so, they've got it badly wrong. Or have I missed some kind of extreme castor or other setting that fixes this. Thanks for any useful advice.
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I guess it is not a rf2 physics issues, but the steering wheel that you have!
Do you have the G27/G25?!
 
GTClub_wajdi said:
I guess it is not a rf2 physics issues, but the steering wheel that you have!
Do you have the G27/G25?!
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Nope. I am completely sure it is not anything whatever with my hardware, which works flawlessly with iracing, gt legends, GTR, Race, etc etc. No, it is, I assure you, the inherent instability of f1, f2 and brabham cars in rfactor2 when in a straight line.
 
Heimdal said:
Hi Gringhos. I too am a veteren user of GPL etc. You seem to be experiencing the same issues that i have. Have a look at the thread I started yesterday (http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/16292-Steering-settings) because i have resolved the problem for me and at last I am really enjoying racing on rFactor2. You problems may be different but its worth a look...
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Hi and thank you for the link to the other thread. The issue I raise has nothing to do with steering hardware, is not related to the maximum or minimum turn of the wheel, or deadzones (I don't use them) or anything other than the physics I am seeing before me in rfactor2. It is very similar to the early code master steering physics which is also vague, wallowing and feeling as though it is disconnected from the sim. If it were hardware related I would instantly see this in all the other racing sims I have.

It is, I grant you, quite hard to describe, but there is a distinct vagueness in the central position, plus a tiny fraction either side of dead centre, where there is a feeling of disconnection with the actual car, as though there WERE a deadzone yet I have not chosen one. In all the other sims, but particularly in GT legends, the steering is absolutely rock solid, The slightest movement left or right connects instantly with the physics (except for the Ac Cobra which again is set up with this false and artificial vagueness).

Like you I drove quite a few single seaters (at Brands Hatch particularly) and not once did I experience the slightest vagueness in straight line control or small increments like I see in rfactor2. I do think it is a misinterpretation and misunderstanding, as though to make it "difficult" to stay in a straight line deliberately, but with no foundation and no basis in reality. I find it intensely unsatisfying and for me this makes single seat cars in rfactor2 a very poor experience. I concede I might be in a minority but I have seen this discussed on other forums.
 
I can not drive Sparks, because they never go where I point them. Eve was like this too in first builds, but after last update for historic formulas EVE behaves much better. Brabham not very good also, closer to Sparks in difficulty for me. Other cars are OK.
 
gringhos said:
Nope. I am completely sure it is not anything whatever with my hardware, which works flawlessly with iracing, gt legends, GTR, Race, etc etc. No, it is, I assure you, the inherent instability of f1, f2 and brabham cars in rfactor2 when in a straight line.
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RF2 is its own game, so comparing the feeling to cars in other sims is completley irrelevant. The single seaters are just fine with my G25 in RF2, as this sim has advanced FFB maybe you're just not used too how it feels perhaps?

It's always easy to blame the game, but sometimes you have to stop and think about yourself and the hardware you use first before passing judgement.
 
It this is not a hardware issue, a lot of times straight line instability is a result of improper toe settings. If it wanders in a straight line, try more toe out up front or toe in at the rear. If it is bump steer, caster, toe and dampers will make a difference and help with that. Your rela life F3 experience was in the mid-70's right? Didn't they have wings by that era in the series you raced in? WCR60's cars are a beast because they have aerodynamic LIFT!

Make sure when you set up your wheel in the controller settings, you hit Detect Wheel before you set anything else up. I forgot to do that once and my FFB was reversed with my T500. Deadzone at TDC can be related to Logitech wheels and it's infamous deadzone in the FFB.
 
Nibo said:
I can not drive Sparks, because they never go where I point them. Eve was like this too in first builds, but after last update for historic formulas EVE behaves much better. Brabham not very good also, closer to Sparks in difficulty for me. Other cars are OK.
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Frankly I'm quite shocked to hear someone say the Brabham is unstable... That thing drives itself! I usually use the default setup just with the brake bias adjusted. Have you tried seeking out threads which discuss this as already linked?
 
MarcG said:
RF2 is its own game, so comparing the feeling to cars in other sims is completley irrelevant. The single seaters are just fine with my G25 in RF2, as this sim has advanced FFB maybe you're just not used too how it feels perhaps?

It's always easy to blame the game, but sometimes you have to stop and think about yourself and the hardware you use first before passing judgement.
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He said he actually drove those kind of cars back in the day, if you re-read. I somewhat agree with his instability point.
 
Tim Wheatley said:
Frankly I'm quite shocked to hear someone say the Brabham is unstable... That thing drives itself! I usually use the default setup just with the brake bias adjusted. Have you tried seeking out threads which discuss this as already linked?
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Yes.. as soon as you put in 2nd gear or higher that car goes like on rails... Not as powerful engine as Spark, for example.

I have always liked the Brabham better, higher quality and much more convincing.
 
Guimengo said:
He said he actually drove those kind of cars back in the day, if you re-read. I somewhat agree with his instability point.
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Formula 3 in the mid 70's...

1. By that time, they had wings (downforce).
2. By that time they had slicks (late 60's=bad bias-ply)
3. Difference between Formula 3 and Formula 1 engine? huge.

What is the difference between a winged mid 70's F3 and a late 60's F1 do you think? :)

BUT, I agree the generic F1 cars physics is not perfect, I don't like them very much but I can drive them. The F2 however is very stable and perfect, easy-to-drive car too me, so I wonder if OP maybe has some problem with his wheel or something...
 
I know what the OP is referring to and I noticed this also with my G25 on the Howston's for example. I don't think this is a hardware issue at all. At higher speeds it's a struggle to keep the car in a straight line. It's like it's being blown around by the wind (which doesn't exist in game yet?) and wandering around. I haven't looked into a resolution and sort of just accepted that as "normal" for those cars as it seems to only happen on the historics. However, some things that may be worth trying are increasing steering deadzone (although this probably would effect all cars), adjust your steering lock setting and/or enable steering lock set per vehicle if you haven't already (I have mine set to 360 degrees for all cars, which very well may be the root cause of this as I don't know off hand what the default steering lock is on these cars), or increase front toe in to gain some straight line stability. Let me know what you find. Hope this helps.
 
Most setup guides tend to say run the rear toe as close to 0 as you can as long as you don't lose stability in a straight line ('wandering' is usually the exact term used) so I'd try that first (ie move it farther away from 0).

TMoney said:
I know what the OP is referring to and I noticed this also with my G25 on the Howston's for example. I don't think this is a hardware issue at all. At higher speeds it's a struggle to keep the car in a straight line. It's like it's being blown around by the wind (which doesn't exist in game yet?) and wandering around. I haven't looked into a resolution and sort of just accepted that as "normal" for those cars as it seems to only happen on the historics. However, some things that may be worth trying are increasing steering deadzone (although this probably would effect all cars), adjust your steering lock setting and/or enable steering lock set per vehicle if you haven't already (I have mine set to 360 degrees for all cars, which very well may be the root cause of this as I don't know off hand what the default steering lock is on these cars), or increase front toe in to gain some straight line stability. Let me know what you find. Hope this helps.
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You mention deadzone - I think that would be the worst thing to do. Some (generally older) games have a fixed deadzone that makes it nearly impossible to drive in a straight line, because although there's an area where the car is going straight it's rarely in the direction you want.. and trying to just nudge it slightly to one side is very difficult when you can't tell where the steering starts. Much better to have steering input the whole time.

I'd definitely be looking at the setup, rear toe especially.
 
That's weird. In the Howston on the Buonfornello straight (over 3 miles flat out) on Targa, I have no problem keeping the car in a straight line (I often have trouble getting to the straight however!) but I use 1080 degrees in the Windows Game Controllers applet and let the game choose my steering wheel angle per vehicle and I use around 23 degrees lock. Of course on those tight roads I am using a lot of toe too.
 
As a veteran user of GPL, GT Legends, rfactor 1 ...So why is there this awful and artificial feeling of instability in the rfactor2 single seaters, f3 excepted? Is it that someone at ISI really believes this needs to be imposed in order to make the cars "authentic"? If so, they've got it badly wrong. Or have I missed some kind of extreme castor or other setting that fixes this. Thanks for any useful advice
Click to expand...

Its impossible to comment properly to address your concern- you need to tell us your wheel....wheel settings.....track/specific car and what set-up options you have chosen....all of these things may affect what you are talking about....whoever made the default set-up may not have made it for you...i usually have to change it to get stability, but thats an individual thing based on you , your style, your wheel, your settings

but my observations about the '69 cars: well i have said this before - the ffb causes the car to be unrealistically unstable.......you can work around it, adjust set-up etc.....but imo, its caused by the ffb being connected to the springs ,,,,you will notice if you hit an uneven part of a track, that the wheel pulls with the compression of the shocks- even if you are going straight it will become unstable as a result- Spa is a prime example where very few people can drive the f1's cleanly, and the track is mostly straight ....Tim Wheatley will ignore this and somehow explain it away in my experience- maybe he doesn't experience it , or maybe he has a fancy wheel-: but it has been a consistent experience of mine, that it takes alot of work to even be able to produce clean laps on a uneven surface track;......set up, wheel and using the more stable F1b all help.......but have to agree with the OP to some extent......

ok so i have to admit im using a g25....which also can cause some issues as compared to some of the other wheels available- it jolts sometimes when other wheels are perhaps a bit smoother

Having said all this - you can work around it to make the car act more stable....these cars are still far more enjoyable than the other sims you mention-i am a veteran of those too - the whole package and the ffb is a quantum leap

...still- there is nothing constructive from claiming its perfect - its not
 
G27 here, 900° rotation (vehicle set, so ~570° with historic formula cars), and normally 18° steering lock with F1 and 20° with Howston, no problem at all to keep the car in a straight line with default setup.
But there is a "natural" deadzone on the G27 where FFB doesn't excist, and I think it increases with wheel rotation/steering lock.

When I first got rF2 I used to drive with a MOMO wheel with only 240° rotation, and also very high steering lock, so quite twitchy, and back then I experienced that the car was harder to keep in a straight line. But the cars has been updated since then and are much better now, I think.

I can agree the 60's F1 (EVE and Spark only) can be quite unstable and wander at straights, but the F2, BT20, Howston are just FINE.
 
Thanks for all the helpful replies. I would like to emphasise again that I really doubt it is hardware related. I have a driving force pro - old but in perfect condition - and there is no slop or play in the control. I think perhaps toe in might address the problem to a small extent. Assuming in rfacto2 that +toe value means toe IN (it sometimes gets confused in some sims), then maybe increasing this on the front wheels would help, but of course too much and turn in gets compromised and creates drag.

I wonder whether castor angles would also alleviate this? I see most single seaters are quite limited in castor angle. Conventionally more castor often means more stability, but not always so.

I agree with an earlier post that creating a dead zone would be even worse. What one needs is for the wheels to point and move exactly with the slightest steering wheel movement, whether it is set up for 900° rotation or 500°. Any dead zone just adds to the uncertainty and creates an even bigger likelyhood of wandering around when trying to drive straight. I will experiment!
 
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