Since we are gonna get that shiny new transmission model in to the game sometime in the future, i tought it would be good to address this topic. It's a common misbelief that you can JUST aswell leftfoot brake as heel/toe. A claim usually made by simracers who haven't bothered to learn the heel/toe technique i find, based on some story heard from some old racer from back in the days, lol.. It's not like there never was a reason to develop the heel/toe technique gents, there's totally a valid reason for it: In situation where you have high brake pressure, and high revs (dropping fast due braking) simultaneously, margin to get the blip just right for the lower gear to engage becomes very small (smaller than you might think at first), and by clutching you increase that margin considerably. In older racecars there was allways mechanical system with distance from the gas pedal to the carburators, and this system is/was never without some "slack" since its not rigid/solid. This combined to slower reacting carburators (vs. injection) made accurate enough blips (without clutching) allmost impossible when on high revs and high brakes. Even tough sequential gearboxes of today makes the shifting faster it does not remove the problem mentioned before. It has more to do with the accuracy and speed of the fuel management system. Modern racecars have much more solid pedal mechanics, ECU controlled fuel injection, and some with even completely electoric pedal systems, which all make blipping accurately much easier thus lowering or even completely removing the need for clutching no matter the situation. But even today, in most of the modern tin top classes, when you compare 2 drivers, one heel/toeing the other left foot braking, the latter usually lets the revs drop a little lower for the downshift. So even with modern race cars of today, heel/toe shifting technique keeps giving advantage, and has not yet become totally obsolete. P.S I love how well this is modeled in one of the newly released sims. It's like they read my mind...or maybe they just relied on physics calculations, who knows P.S.S waiting for pad knockback to be modeled someday...
What does it matter who uses what and why. Historic racers had different technique, why not simmers ? I do not understand people want more realistic transmissions when at the very same time they use fantasy virtual mirrors, plugins, readouts and many other fictional things to make life easier.
Hmm this is a long discussion to have that will probably never come up with unanimous opinion. I personaly drive with no HUD on, but if the car has obstructed mirrors when my steering wheel vs seat position is perfect, i use virtual mirrors. I have two buttons on my steering wheel for two HUD screens that i switch off again as soon as i have the info i needed. Many people fill their screens with all sorts of info and many time they dont even use 10% of it or dont even know what it means(TrackMap plugin is just absurd) but they will tell you "its to simulate me asking my team on the radio about this stuff". And to some extend, it for sure is. The point is that there are sim drivers and sim racers - Drivers will do their best to have as authentic experience as possible, at the cost of speed where racers will try to find every possible legal way how to get faster. So i always try to drive the car as much as i would in real life. I even go as far as putting my shifting stick on respective side according to the car. Heel and Toe is the same. I heel and toe (altho im srsly **** at it) in every car that should be heel and toed. I am pretty sure there are quite bit more drivers around me who do it the same. So i would most certainly love as reaslitic tranny model as possible with all the punishments that come with getting it wrong. Same for engine and simply the whole drive train. And there is nothing more sattisfying than getting a downshift on manual right. Altho it happens so quickly you still need to be smiling whilst focusing on apex and track out
I agree with all that and the remarks on technical aspect by OP. Like if you drive a old F3 you should have a spongy brake needs pumping up ( well in drum brake era anyways ) ie: pressure loss, that would be a cool feature.
Exactly!!!!! And as for the transmission model.. 99% of servers have aids ebabled, and auto clutch, in every one of them!!?? Why cry for things that they never gonna take advantage over? i have never understood this. I play flight sims and racing sim pretty much 50/50, and when ever i come back to racing this aids thing boggles my mind cause 99% of flight sim servers have zero aids available. If i wouldn't be aware of all the age polls, i would have blamed it for the "next generation kids, gotten used to have everything easy" but since it seems we are over 40 most of us i really dont know what gives...
I don't think 99% of servers really have multiple aids enabled, if you include league servers. Public ones often will just to keep the numbers up a bit - and properly planned mods will punish you for using extraneous aids, so there's incentive to switch them off.
It would be good if server could set the penalties for aids individually, so that with no aids you get the fastest car but hardest (and most realistic) to handle. If the penalties would be prominent enough it would encourage drivers to learn out of them i think. That way we could get out of this ridiculous situation, where even experienced drivers use them to just stay in the fight for victory. It doesnt serve the community, nor does it serve these more realistic sims like rfactor 2 at all in the long run, if people get use to easy hadling cars. Look at the new megane for example. Like few days after release, someone makes more grippy and easier to drive version of it, and there are more servers running that mod instead of the ISI version. All the hard work ISI put into it ruined imo. I think ISI and all modders should encrypt their files to prevent this, this is just absurd. I mean C'MON guys, you must get what i mean right?
I always understood ISI has a vision of choice, they provide a platform with which people can do whatever they want. Modding cars for whatever purpose and then seeing allot of people enjoying it.....must be good? Pretty sure ISI don't mind at all. One of the reasons rf1 had so many leagues was because every league did these things differently and all you had to do was find the league that suited your needs best. or start one yourself. That's a bit more difficult these days but the principle stays the same. Demanding everything to be the same for everyone is communism. Are you a communist Kelju?
If you're using real clutch and manual transmission it's almost impossible to brake, down shift quickly and keep the car stabilized without heel & toe.
I get away with downshifting fairly late even though/because I don't heel & toe (never developed the coordination to do it under pressure), like how most people drive on the street. Yes, it puts me at a small disadvantage. Part of H-shifter is ability to skip gears for the downshifts, so 5th-to-3rd and 4th-to-2nd are common moves... obviously one seeking simulation doesn't use H-shifter in place of sequential; one uses the proper shifter for the car.
I don't like assist of any sort. Hell, I don't use abs or tcs even if it's available on the IRL car. After only a small amount of time running race leagues and servers, it became obvious that auto transmission needs to be an option for drivers. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have G25 or above racing wheels, which is the bare minimum required to drive with a clutch and h-pattern I believe. I've also raced with many people who drive with KB&M, controllers and even flight sticks because of physical limitations. Those two reasons are enough for me to allow auto trannies on my servers.
I`m also in the "full realism" camp. I heel/toe (I remember it was in dear old GPL that I first tried it... mmm... yes, messy ) but I persisted and can now do it "reasonably" well... I don`t do much online so can`t comment on what they do there but I`d like a realistic transmission in rf2 but if others wouldn`t it could maybe be made an option of some kind. I don`t use any virtual mirrors or anything like that either but will use TC etc if it`s used on a car in reality. I don`t see the problem with that as if I was driving that car in reality these options would be there and I`m sure the drivers of these cars in reality don`t turn these things off. Having only one monitor I do however use the "look back" option as sometimes with certain cars to get a realistic driving position in the cockpit I can`t see the side mirrors and it`s just irresponsible to not be able to see what`s behind you. So yeah, full realism all the way... as much as sim racing will allow anyway. And spongy brakes too D for the old F3`s (and others too)
"Are you a communist Kelju?" well if what im asking makes me a commy, then YES I AM! lol Look, let me explain. In flightsim community even the newbies want to do it like its done irl from the beginning. Why is that? Well i guess relationship between men and cars is more complicated than it is with men and planes. With cars and driving we all have bigger egos, no one wants to be the slow guy, while in flying it's allright to be the NOOB and crash, and stall and get shot down, lol. That's just the way it is i guess, and i dont think it'll ever gonna change. But i wish the egos wouldn't affect this hole thing as much as it does, is what im basically trying to say here. I know that in this community even within healthy rivalry, there is allways help available to those who seek it. Ask help with setups and dont be afraid to ask driving tips either. And dont get me wrong, I DONT mean that all servers should be full real, I just wish that in general we would move more toward the additude in flight simming, thats all. atm the additudes are opposites of each other, thats why switching back and fort feels so absurd. And about learning the heel/toe, yes its a struggle but its not that big of a boogieman that it first feels like. It's more of an epiphany kind of thing that just some day will "click" in your head and ever since it becomes easier and easier quite quickly. I know several people who have learned it very quickly and have been saying afterwards "i dont know why i didnt start to learn it earlier, this is so great!" And my self can testify to that aswell, once you get it, its much more rewarding than winning with aids, believe me. You might have to sacrifice little time to adjust your brake pedal settings like travel and curves, and fiddle with brake pressure settings in setup. Having a "loadcell" mod helps very much in that. I made one for my self with less that 5€ putting industrial freezer door sealant (kinda foamy)rubber strips inside my G27 pedal spring. Makes really good hydraulic feeling to the pedal and was cheap as dirt. Kel P.S Being slow in sims doesnt mean you cant drive. All of my friends who are faster than me irl (some much faster!) are much slower than me in sims. there are many reasons for that, no 1 being in sims we have to try to get all information what is happening with the car thru our little monitors (ffb being the exception). Reading the situation from the one source we have is a skill set of it's own and has nothing to do with driving skills. I'm writing a topic about that and will post a separate thread about it during the weekend. In it i will address the issues of "feeling of like driving on ice" and that car behaviour "in the limit" or in oversteer that i see talked a lot in the forums. Meanwhile have a nice weeked all
Yeah Look back is my one weakness p ..........in fairness it can make it more difficult sometimes. You get a real sense of distance from back view though. Mirrors you don't, that is why people often back into things parking. lol p Actually that is why they made cameras, because mirrors suck p
Another simple thing is throttle travel, something Martin hinted on in F1 Practice. His days was 27mm Lewis has 80mm .... a few decades of F1. But "most" of use use the same travel for all cars whether its a truck or a go kart.
From memory, I think that's not exactly what he said. I think he said it was 27mm during the traction-control days, because they didn't really need such precision control with the throttle, but they just wanted to mash it asap
Ah okay but my point still stands. Take a Go Kart compared to a 60s GT. To simulate you would need to re-config your pedal and resulting variation in throttle travel could have a impact.......... like on your heel-toe method. Same with realistic brake travel, again compare a Kart and Old Car So if you had a easily adjustable travel without spanners, etc you could replicate that turbo throttle and mash it........ set pedals you can't. Sorry P.S. Of course you can easily replicate it, adjust the pedal travels in software. IE: by limiting the pedal ranges in the rF2 menu or other method DX Tweak etc But that is canned and you would be using a lighter part of the spring @ full pedal. Even CSP are a drama to fiddle with and have limited settings. Custom pedals would be much easier to do , hydraulics even better ........mmmm ( drool ) lol
I understand what you mean and you are not alone in this for sure. But it is indeed different from the flight sim community, not sure why, don't think its just ego's though. Ask any league-admin and they will most likely tell you that they need to find a balance between goals and numbers. These where continuous debates in my league every time we where organising a new season, what to do, how to keep peeps happy, what are the limits in which we can still feel its simracing but also catering for as many members-wishes as possible. And still be open to those with disabilities/limited hardware/limited time/etc. It's a never-ending story to be honest. Some leagues are much more strict, we do it like this and if you don't like it.... But it kinda shows the attraction of rfactor, options for all. So in that sense, you gotta find a place where your demands are met because I doubt it will happen because we want to. Unless ISI decides to force it on us, which will not happen any time soon, or at all. Maybe Durge's idea he keeps spoonfeeding us with over and over is not so bad, rfactor and rfactorPro. something for the 'masses' and something for maniacs like you
