Why conversions are cool

Exactly, just beacause they have been done, and are there, does not mean you have to keep them installed. If you try something and you think it's poor quality/bad, then delete it and move on to the next one. At least with conversions there are more options around.

 

+1

 

Why conversion needs to be just like it was where it was converted from? Maybe some improvements can be made, it still is conversion but improved one?

Are we so afraid of someone changing what we have made that we can't allow improvements to be made?

Also someone's first scratch make track might not be quite so good as someones 20th conversion, with limited time saving some of the work is perhaps not so bad thing.

Surely at some point scratch making is as much work as converting and importing so that is something to consider too.

But how ever it is, with tracks I hope there are no more flat billiard table surfaces that have been pointlessly following us even in rF1, there is really no need for such detail saving on road surfaces, imo

 

I believe that is a false dichotomy. The choice isn't between "quality" and "mass production of low quality".
As I said before, there are conversions of very good quality and there is nothing inherent in conversions that make them inferior.
What's worse, someone who can do a conversion (and learn in the process) isn't necessarily able to produce a quality scratch made track, or has the time or determination to spend 6 months on a scratch made track.
Think of the people having worked with BTB or 3d simed. It will take a bit of acclimatization with 3ds max before you could expect them to produce scratch-made tracks of top quality.
The actual dichotomy I'm seeing concerning conversions is "have no version of the track" or "have a converted version of the track".

Whether feels3 improved the rF1 version or does a version of Croft from scratch is his choice, and his alone. If he had chosen to work on an improved conversion I would be just as happy, as it is still better than no Croft at all. Depending on the quality of the track and on feels3 work it may be a decent enough track (maybe even not for you, but you'd be surprised what low quality tracks are run in leagues or among friends) or a brilliant one, but that's his choice to make and his alone. I welcome the effort of modders whatever choice they make.

I find telling them they wasted their effort on a conversion and should have done a scratch made version is not just terribly discouraging but also, as Guineapiggy would probably say, very dickish.

 

Sorry, but most conversions that weren't made by the original author were of bad quality. Tools like 3DSimEd made things way too easy for converters. Many tracks/cars didn't even meet the rF1 release standard in terms of graphics. I don't say that all conversions are of bad quality and all scratch made mods are of superior quality. But conversions tend to be a rushed product. People don't seem to spend much time in improving existing content and/or using new features.

When I look into the modding subforums there are so many rushed mods (converted and scratch made) with really poor quality. These "modders" don't even try to improve and meet some minimum quality standards. Modders should concentrate on quality not on speed modding and being to first to release something.

 

There are pros and cons of both approaches (conversions vs dedicated builds for rf2). Pros: we get good/best quality sim around the world. cons - we would have to wait for quality content.
But try to count ratio between best developed tracks against others (for rf1 platform). I bet the ratio will be very very low. So, unfortunately (from my point of view) there is not too much quality tracks in rF1. Then if you convert all not quality tracks into rf2 - we get simply worse simulation experience.

Instead of forcing our self to develop new sim in quality, some ones are suggesting to do some agreement over bad quality. I cannot agree with that because I don't want to end up for next 10 years with low quality product (in overall).

Of course some compromises must be made, otherwise we would have no tracks to race on. But in overall there should be a trend to make quality instead of quantity. It is time to undrstand, that nowadays not only physics behind counts. So don't screw up the work done by ISI with bad data put into this sim. please.

 

i understand your point and im not sayig im pushing a track out quick to just get it out, i am working on this track to make it better quality. i want it too look good and feel right, but my opinion on what looks right and feels right is right for me but you might not like the look or the feel there is no set standard for feeling right looking right. scratch built or conversion does it matter how it looks or feels , as long as it feels right and looks right to the general public that is all that matters. trust me i want it too look and feel right

 

How does it make your simulation experience worse just because someone somewhere uses a low quality track?
What does the ratio of awesome to mediocre have to do with you enjoying the tracks you like, and skipping on the ones you don't?
Simply removing the (in your eyes) low quality mods does not give you any more enjoyable tracks or makes the good quality tracks any better?

Instead you're discouraging and driving out potential modders who right now are adding value for other users who are happy to use the (in your eyes) low quality tracks, and who in a year or two could be churning out top quality tracks. Top quality tracks that might now never exist and you will miss out on as well.

 

No-go's when it comes to conversions:

Don't use bad source-material.

Don't convert the good stuff when you don't have a clue how to do.

Don't release unfinished stuff.

Don't try to be the first.

Don't hope to be the coolest guy on earth by pressing some buttons.


Sadly 95% of all conversions are done by noobs that want to raise attention. They should get slapped for that...
Apart from the illegality, thats the thing I hate about many conversions. - When I start converting a track, my main target is: Don't loose quality and try to blend the track into the new engine. So, try to make it look like a even better ISI track.

 

If car factory develop 100 car models but only single one is good and other suxx, what opinion will be given to the factory?

I'm a league admin. And want to give the best experience to drivers. Without it they just loosing interest in current title and looking around for alternatives. It's simply. So, if some track will be provided with low quality, first time they want to try it, but next time they throw whole title away.
That's why avoiding not quality stuff releases does matter.

Do you want rF2 to be best sim ever or not? If you have low requirements do not deny higher reqs of other people. better quality will not kill you.
And if you are OK to read everywhere that rF2 suxx because of bad quality of quite everything, then I have nothing to say more.

 

...in the face....with a chair.

 

Since when is rFactor/ISI a factory that develops every mod released? Last time I checked every mod with the exception of Barber for rF1 was done by modders or modding teams. Even disregarding that, what do you care what opinion others have of that abstract entity rF2+mods? Can't you enjoy it if some fanboy of another sim dislikes your sim because it has one poorly done mod?

You're clearly in need of high quality mods then. Do you seriously think such people will not throw the whole title away if there are no mods, instead of low quality mods? Not to mention that instead of discouraging users (although I would argue that it would be your job as league admin to select good enough tracks), you're discouraging modders. Last time I checked, we had a very small pool of modders producing content already, which you're just making smaller and smaller.

I don't give a hoot about such petty stuff. And come rF3, you will want it to be the best sim ever again, don't you? A best sim becomes it through the good stuff it has, not by omitting any not-so-great-stuff. What's a rF2 worth that has only four decent tracks?

That is unbelievably hypocritical. If you have high requirements do not deny lower reqs of lower people. Lower quality will not kill you!
In fact, as I said earlier, it will help you as you will have more modders stay with modding and not give up because some petty dude took a piss at them. It's perfectly fine to have higher requirements. Only drive those mods you consider good enough and we're all fine, but don't go around pissing on people for not being as great as you want them to be.

 

It comes down to this for me - I don't mind people converting, even poorly, as much as I mind conversions and scratch-built tracks being lumped together, especially when they're not clearly identified and, more importantly, the rating system on places like rFactorCentral is basically meaningless as a guide to quality. Convert all you want, I just want to be able to bypass that kind of stuff instead of having to wade through it. I want to be able to do a search either in a category for scratch-built mods or to be able to uncheck a box for converted work because, honestly, 95% of them I don't find worth my time. Avoiding value judgements some others may, I and a good number of others do not.

Another thing - people are talking like converting that Croft circuit and making it good is only a matter of replacing some textures - it isn't and frankly if you want a visually accurate representation based on that, or an accurate driving experience, it would genuinely be quicker to start from zero because most, if not all of that track will be thrown out.

More, most of this debate only applies to tracks. Cars - unless you truly understand car dynamics, (and I'll be frank, even some of the more popular and lauded mod teams don't) converting only gets you a low-poly shell and some textures that'll likely need adjusting heavily for the new materials and shaders anyway.

 

It will not kill me. It will kill the title. Just because of loosing interest in this title and moving to another one. Lower interest starts chain reaction of destroying title, which is hard to stop.

Yeah.. it is popular to call fanboy any one who criticize the title.
It is not about single persons. It is about the whole gaming (or even simracing) community. In current world does matter how titles are rated on the market. hi notes means success which turns into more users. greater community means more modders, more effort from devs etc. If we start completely new title with poor quality content, we will kill the platform, more or less.

Just look how many people went to iR just because of completeness and quality of provided content (even if any one of us knows flaws in physics and business model)


And yes, I want to race finally sim providing maximum quality to get maximum possible simracing experience. Especially that it is technically possible.

I don't. I suggest to not make hype around any sucking content (it is not only matter of conversions). We all should prefer quality. And modders should know about that. But they will not until you call things to be 'amazing' simply because these are present, not because it is quality.

 

The more tracks and cars we get, the more people scatter and finding a server with good number of people on it becomes unlikely - simply because everyone is driving something else somewhere else.

Of course you can say that best tracks will eventually emerge on top....


Well, here's one of the best tracks ever according to people at RFC:



This is a conversion from F1C. The guy who made it says himself:
-Just a rough version.
-Just to learn the track.
-wrong track line and banking

Despite being just a horrible quick conversion track made it to Hall Of Fame on RFC.

Additionally it collected a 4.5/5.0 rating for FPS performance and 5.0/5.0 ratings in all other categories including textures and realistic track surface.

 

Pretty much this.

 

I'll just add that it hurts the final product.

Why? Because if there is someoene new to simracing (or rFactor 2), he will try to find tracks to race on. He eventually will find an awesome place called rfactorcentral.com, he will download top rated track, he will look at it and say "WTF is that, this is rFactor 2? Thanks I'll pass".

This is how having many poor convertions (and there will be an awful lot of that) is hurting the product.

 

Quite. I've actually seen depictions of rFactor that don't use high-quality mods to promote or discuss the game, that don't even use in-game content, but the scrappy quality stuff you see up there. (Oh, and just so you know, guys, gratuitously applying blur and other filters to your screen shots does not hide the poor quality. Just thought I'd make that more general point.)

 

Sometimes it's good - when you run an F1 league and you desperately need all tracks from calendar, or if you just want to try something new. But these benefits are relatively small comparing to damage they cause.

Wanna make a conversion? Be my guest, but put some effort into it and at least make it proper.