What's the point of Real Road?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by martymoose, Jan 21, 2014.

  1. John

    John Registered

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    If anyone decides to use the SFA Public server, you will find weather, a slightly rubbered race line AND damage. We have always done it this way, accelerated RR or not, to ensure familiarity with the sim in all situations. The last few weeks we have run the Civic (and likely to continue for a while) and so far we have had rain in the practice sessions but dry races. You can randomise it if you script it with a relatively low % chance of rain, and control the intensity of the rain if it comes with the % of humidity. The higher the percentages, the more likely the event.

    We're running at Sebring this week (modified layout) so feel free to jump on and make use of the unpredictability of it all. The apprehension at race start is palpable, when the clouds blow in too, will it - won't it.

    And, we always restart the weekend with either a green or light rubber preset, we never carry it over to avoid the problem of a fully rubbered track and no skill required to conquer it.
     
  2. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    With league races, another cool thing with realroad is that you can create scenarios. Start a race off green and the story is- it rained last night. Start a GT race with rubber laid down from F2- the support race. The shorter rubber in the braking zones make you think about your own braking zone. I agree too much rubber down on every track is a bad thing, but varying amounts can add a new dimension to the races.
     
  3. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Discussing about this is fine but I understand that what we need is simply the possibility to adjust the rubber cumulative rate. I would like to be able to set it from zero to 4x or 8x the normal rate. The same as fuel and tyre wear. This is a sim that should be able to both imitate reality but also change some things to adapt them to user requirements that in real life could not be possible. For example when you are trainjng is difficult to know how much you have improved from better driving and how much is just realroad grip effect. Useful for setup preparation.

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     
  4. Sam Moss

    Sam Moss Registered

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    The point of real road is to simulate track build up across various racing lines on the track and realistically not be penalised for taking a different line than the theoretical fastest line. In rF2 this technology is pretty good in the game, taking a green track to fully rubbered in over time on any racing line. The problem we face in game is many servers start as brand new tarmac with 0% rubber and are expected to go to 100% grip in by the end of practice.

    No real world track is like this and most likely starts at 85-95% grip at the start of the weekend because most tracks now are used nearly 7 days a week. So to compensate for this rF2 has the Real Road Preset which allows servers to load a saved real road level which again is great but then we have our first set of problems;
    a) Hardly any servers used it including ISI servers,
    b) it can be any variation of real road. It would be better implemented if you got a range of presents such as 1/2 rubber for tracks not well used and 3/4 rubber for well used. If online servers ran a preset of say 75% tracks wouldn't be like ice when you do your first laps because of no rubber on the track thus more enjoyable.

    The next problem we face with real road is that it goes from one extreme to the other and has been left like this because so far nobody has raised the issue. We go from apparently a very slippery track that is "green" to one that's super grippy and 4 second a lap faster by the end of a weekend. Yes real life tracks can grip up especially during summer but certainly never by 3 / 4 seconds per lap. You might see 1 second improvement through grip alone but that's because we already race on such good tyre compounds that the difference between a "green" track that is just dirty and nice grippy track is pretty minimal.

    Going slightly offline doesn't mean you should lose massive amounts of time because the track is "dirty". More often than not it has ample grip but is a lot slower because you have the wrong line. The problem in GTR2's real road is it perceived that as soon as you go off the racing line you get 25% grip loss and massive marbles.

    The final problem we have is visually the difference between a green track and fully rubbered in is massive. As said a rubbered in rF2 track looks like a drag strip all the way round and can go from nice tarmac texture to very black in 10 minutes. The racing line should be nicely rubbered in as we can see in the 2 pictures but that's because its the line used 90% of the time but this should be the 100% texture mask, not the black we currently have.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    The visual difference can be improved with a better realroad texture (like in the last ISI tracks) which looks better than in that screen. However it will never be as "smooth" as in your picture as it is a polygon-based system, so the realroad system will "paint" the polys you are hitting with your car.
     
  6. Matt Sentell

    Matt Sentell Member

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    Excellent post, Sam.

    I fear that rF2's accelerated RealRoad being in place for so long creates a very false impression among people about how much attention one pays to this in real life. I can't remember ever thinking at all about "how much rubber was down" when I was racing irl. The only time I thought about the condition of the surface was when it rained. And although I never thought about this either, track temperature is much more relevant to think about than rubber build-up because it can change quickly in comparison.

    In professional motorsport it's a thing, but it still isn't something that has such dramatic effects as currently seen in rF2, just because Sam is correct that most tracks are already in a state of 85-95% grip when the teams show up. There are exceptions, particularly in F1 where some tracks are less used. The closest I've seen to something like what rF2 presents was when the F1 teams showed up for the first race at Circuit of the Americas. They sounded like sim racers, saying how it was like driving on ice and they'd never seen so little grip before. It's this condition that rF2 seems to be representing with its "Green" track condition, and it's cool that the range is so great that it can do that, but it's a condition that is very rarely seen irl.
     
  7. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    When someone makes a server up and puts tracks on the server, the admin can't be lazy and just put a green track up! A server should begin with some rubber down. So you run some Ai around for 5 minutes and get a light rubber profile down, save it and set the server to start with that rubber. But each track should begin completely green because that is the base grip level.

    If you race on a server where every track is totally green to start, you should get on the admin about it or find a new server
     
  8. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    I totally agree.
     
  9. PLAYLIFE

    PLAYLIFE Member

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    In motorsport terms, green means no rubber whatsoever. Green is a worst state (in terms of grip) than a dirty track.
     
  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Well, no, not really. Every race in F1 they talk about the track being green - obviously for proper tracks that's a relative term only. It's more green than it will be, but it's not laid 2 weeks ago. So sure, 'fully green' might be no rubber, but that very rarely happens. I don't think even Austin was fully green when they first went there, and it was being talked about like they were on ice. (typical driver speak, of course)

    If you're going to allow simulation of all conditions green needs to be fully green, extremely slippery compared to full grip. But when a track starts like that server admins (and/or others) need to be aware you need to have some running both on and off the racing line in order to get it like a real track - not just AI (or humans) running around on the racing line and leaving the rest fully green.

    And having said all that, a track 3-5 seconds a lap slower isn't undriveable. But a lot of players don't know how to drive that much slower, so they fall off and complain about lack of grip.
     
  11. sg333

    sg333 Registered

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    I remember that first F1 practice at COTA where the drivers talked about the track having no grip, and the reason was the track was literally just built. It was dirty, dusty etc etc. Cars were missing corners, braking points, and so on, and it was quite similar to what you experience on an RF2 "green" track. Which is why I think 'green' should have a BIT more grip, and have a different setting for DIRTY track, with grip like the current 'green' setting has (possibly even slightly lower grip, but not a lot :) )
     
  12. alpha-bravo

    alpha-bravo Registered

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    Yes but this mean not automatically we have to drive this conditions and it simulates a common real life situation.
    If I follow the real life definiton from playlife and say rF2 green track is the same as IRL it's for me more logical to see it as a starting point to build up the amount of rubber in a complexity possible nearest to real.
    I think a good solution would be to build and share "quality rubber files" like we do it with HDR profiles. Other example could be to use it for fine tuning and put it into the package file for a full Mod or vmod (car+tracks+hdr prof.+rubber files) as a "rubber preset" status.
    From a technical view ISI has given us the opportunity to create all possible variants and this is in my opinion their target.
    In my opinion the ability to use this green conditions for simulation is more a side effect. (of course, not the worst :))
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2014
  13. Miro

    Miro Registered

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  14. alpha-bravo

    alpha-bravo Registered

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  15. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    Light rubber is much better then starting green or even a realistic type of rubber level, though atm most servers seem to have save last session or preset at dragstrip ;)

    Starting on fully green really isnt realistic as Luke says in that thread and is commonly understood but there is no need to start with levels beyond what youd get after a 24 hour race with 60+ cars. Then with the accelerated RR starting at say 80% will get it to 100% very quick where a more natural rubbering effect would be barely noticeable but still there. Going from maybe 75-80% to maybe 90% after a full dry race weekend.
     
  16. PLAYLIFE

    PLAYLIFE Member

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    I should have been more specific, I was talking about 'fully green' as compared to dirty.

    'Green' means no or little rubber..at least rubber that is not for instance in the case of F1, not F1 rubber.
    Dirty track could mean anything, like debris or dust.

    You can have a rubbered-in track that is dirty.
    You can't have a rubbered-in track that is 'fully green'.

    At Albert Park every year, you would consider the track to be 'fully green' Thursday morning before any racing car has run on it.
    By FP1, it may be considered to be partially green (V8s, Porsche Carrera Cup etc have been running around).
    Not withstanding torrential rain for a long period of time washing everything away, you won't have a 'green' track on Sunday race day.
    You may however have a dirty track on Sunday race day.

    That's why I believe the term 'green' would indicate worse grip than 'dirty'. I think the definition as used in rF2 is fine.

    From F1.com:
    Q: In what condition does the circuit usually begin the race weekend?
    A: Almost all circuits begin the weekend in a condition that is termed ‘green’ - even if rubber has been laid down on the racing line, any previous running will not have been with the same sticky tyres as used in Formula One racing.
     
  17. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    I dont think you could possibly call Albert park fully green as its a public road used by thousands of cars every day, sure its not race tyres and also not on the racing line but it wouldnt be all that dirty would be quite similar to Monaco. Would be interesting to see how much progression there is lap time wise at street circuits vs commonly used road courses and those rarely used F1 tracks in the middle of nowhere. Even Sepang would be a very green circuit almost every day as they get the daily downpour that would pretty much clean it up each nite much the same as the Singapore track which I think would be greener then Melbourne or Monaco due to monsoonal daily rain.

    More green would be some middle eastern F1 circuits or the Indian circuit which get practically no laps all year round except for the grand prix weekend. They are also in very dry and dusty environments where theyd be covered in crap in no time. But in terms of f1 not many cars lay down as much rubber as those POS Pirelli tyres they run that pretty much kill a set of tyres in 5-10 laps. So just about every track would be fairly green for them even with regular track days or smaller series racing there.
     
  18. Jamezinho

    Jamezinho Registered

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    I believe Hungaroring is one of the more "green" F1 circuits as it doesn't experience continual use and gets very dusty. That used to be the case anyway. Things may have changed in recent years.
     
  19. alpha-bravo

    alpha-bravo Registered

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    To answer the question of this thread a logical solution (for me) would be:
    The rate of rubber built should be near as possible to real life if time scale or wear rate is accelerated we need a additional option for the rubber rate because combine the rubber rate with time scale and/or wear rate (if they are set to different values) cause inconsistent results.

    The preset at starting the race weekend should be near as possible to real life.

    Edit: IRL more race series=cars of different types with different lines drive on a race weekend around the track. Due this there is rubber on places for example much earlier in the braking zone as F1 car it needs.
    That should or could also considered in the presetting. It is a huge optimizing potential for league races. In our Howston season the last rubber file for practice and qualy and race was created manually by a league member. For me this was a very good solution :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2014
  20. Guy Moulton

    Guy Moulton Registered

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    One problem with rubber profiles is that they get broken by a new build sometimes. I keep all the old .rrbin files I create when I put a server up, but then a build comes along and they don't work anymore.

    The solution is not be lazy when you put up a track. Spend 15 mins making the realroad rubber profile you want on the track, put it on the server and use that. If you are lazy and just start a track off green, of course your server is going to suck.
     

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