Correct Vince. The .exe compiled for ASR for instance and its core code are all modified heavily to suit the needs of our product. Mods do not have that level of access.
I bet some one told Steve Jobs that no one would pay for those fart Apps. Now Apple is one of the top 3 richest companys in the world. I know that donation to a mod is the best way to raise money. But like one guy said only a small part off the people do that. Like Mike from SCE said they do not get near the money they put out of their pockets to keep a mod going. I suggested to Gjon a few weeks back that ISI build a Mod Store. Where molders could submit there mod for approval. ISI could keep 30% like Apple does and sell the mods with MM. I think $5 or $10 for a mod is a good price and the same for a track pack. Do not put sponsors on the cars. This is just one league owners opinion. If a mod wants to give their work away that is fine too. Just like in the apps store there are some good free stuff.
Good point about the cost adding up I just sat back and thought about how many of the hundreds of mods for rf1 out there I would be happy to pay for. Probably only two that I can think of realistically I'd be happy to fork out hard earned cash for, of all the others I can think of, if I had to pay I just wouldn't bother, harsh but true. Most mods are amateur like Playlife said, and a lot are pretty average in the physics dept but still good fun to race. I guess, from my point of view, if modders did starting trying to charge for their work.. maybe 90% of them wouldn't earn much anyway lol. Sounds harsh but I don't mean it to be a knock against modders. I just think, like Playlife pointed out, why spend your money on amateur work? unless the mod is really great it probably wouldn't sell.
Very valid point about the cost adding up, but this is not something new and I'll explain why. We already have costs adding up with each new expansion we buy for various games we play, whether they are racing or not. In our genre we have iRacing which has supposedly over 20,000 subscribers. Thats over 20,000 sim-racers paying every month and paying for new car and track content. While we do have to consider that out of all those subscribers, how many are still active, how many actually buy the new content, but those are facts we will never know. It may be a small margin yes, but it could also be a majority margin also. We have no way of knowing aside from seeing how active their online races are with unique players. Flight Sim community already does this as it was pointed out earlier, and there is a big following for it too. It could easily be done by the mod groups here also. The difference here is that the community here has become so used to getting mods for free, that they think it is their right to continue to get them for free. They hate anything that mentions the word more money because they are so used to getting everything for free. And once they get it, they bash and flame the group for how crappy it is rather then support and help them to make it better through constructive feedback, advice, help etc. In regards to people asking why they should pay for amateur work, well...look at some of the work done on rF1. CTDP, VLM, MMG, BSIM, and many other groups have created mods that physically and graphically surpassed the official content. So I don't see people considering it amateur work when it is on par or even sometimes above par compared to the company that made the original game or expansion. We also have to factor in that ISI will not acquire licenses for every car/series under the sun, so mod groups could capitalize on content that is not being made officially yet the community yearns for and go that route to provide that content. There's so many ifs and buts but at the end of the day the scenario is the same. If mod groups really wanted to, they could do it and it would turn out to become like flight sim community. Everyone will bitch and moan for a long time about it, but when they see they have no choice in the matter, they will do exactly the same thing they do with major company games right now. They suck it up and pay for it. I'm not saying that's right, but its also not right to acquire a mod for free and then troll around forums bashing the group because their work is not good enough like another groups. What is the point of that? it demotivates the workers, it drives groups away. Instead, this community needs to get its head back into gear and begin supporting more, encouraging more, when its not good enough in your view, give your constructive criticism, help in any way you can, and above all else, help this community grow further. If a mod that I really wanted charged money for it, yes my initial reaction would be, WTF, its just a mod, but being a mod group owner, I can understand the mentality of wanting to earn something for your hard work. Eventually after several tantrums I'd suck it up and buy it. That's how the majority will be also. But as I iterated again, currently, I do not see us ever charging for mods, but you never know what the future will bring to the modding world. Today we feel one way, tomorrow we feel another. The most important thing in all this is to support the mod groups more and help them rather then put them down and discourage them. All putting them down does is discourage them and destroy the modding community. We need more modders, we need more people willing to learn, and we definitely need more groups to suck up their pride and help people learn.
About the costs adding up... I agree that it could get expensive. Realistically, rFactor only had maybe 3-4 mods that I would consider paying for. If you don't like paying for mods, either don't pay for them, or create your own Once you start creating your own mod, you'll start to get an idea of what goes into it. It's a monumental task. There are very few groups out there that do it well. Very few people have the time and energy that it takes to create a great mod. I would imagine that rFactor 2 will be no different. I suspect that there will only be a couple of great mods out there that I'd be willing to pay for. I really don't think there will be that many groups charging for mods at first. I'll even go so far as to speculate that there will be a blinking contest among mod groups. Sort of a "who's going to do it first" type of thing. Even if mod groups were to charge for mods, I don't think they should be demonized. If it's worth charging for, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't.
It's refreshing to have a civilised discussion with differing viewpoints, enjoy reading your points guys Must admit my knowledge of the flight sim community is virtually non-existent. Despite being an aircraft engineer I've never really delved into flight sims as I have with car racing sims. So interesting to hear from Petros that their charging for mods doesn't seem to have driven away the users. I've never created a mod but have toyed and built tools for modelling slip curves and other physics parameters etc. I can understand the enjoyment one gets when doing work but would myself never consider selling my tools. Once they are developed to a state I'm happy with I'd be more than happy to distribute them for free for a few reasons. For one, I think the community will benefit as a whole which other people can then build upon to create something better. Also, the extra tools available will trigger more ideas from more people and together as a community we increase the sim racing experience. Sure there will always be people who take and not give back. Sometimes it's because they don't have the know how or time so that's fair enough and thus don't begrudge them. I like to think that our rFactor community are as into sim racing as myself and only want to see improvements to make our experience better. Maybe I'm naive, but I think there are very few destructive people in our community. I can only talk at length in the leagues I race in and mod group forums I visit, but they all seem like a great bunch of dudes. Rambling a bit, so back on topic regarding paying for mods. I can understand if someone wanted to charge for their work, each to their own. I get the satisfaction of producing something myself and that's my 'reward' as such. The iRacing model I think is finite. As you said Patros, we don't know the true numbers nor how many are still ongoing subscribers and mod/track buyers. But I think over time the number of users of that iRacing model will decrease rather than increase, which I believe is the opposite of rFactor. I was one of their original paying customers but for what I got, I was found wanting more but realising the cost was going to spiral for what I wanted decided to stop renewing my subscription. Even more-so, realising that I can get as much content as I wanted in another game for a lot lot less was very attractive. For the users of iRacing, the cost can only increase. Once you've been spoilt for choice and different content, I can't see people being happy with what they have and staying with it for the next 5 years. They'll want more cars, more tracks, especially since the models get better and better. This is why I think iRacing will decrease in popularity.
Yup, totally agree, it always amazes and saddens me when I see this sort of thing. I have a vague idea of how enourmous a job it is to create a mod, and even if I don't like a mod for whatever reason or think something was done poorly, I still appreciate the effort and time that has gone into it. I also appreciate that it's the work of these guys that has helped make rfactor so popular, as has been mentioned before, without the modders rfactor is unlikely to have been so successful. If more of us (by us I mean the sim-racing community) stopped and thought about what we could do to make things better instead of bashing can you imagine what could be acheived? Could simply be constructive feedback on what can be done better, could be getting involved by helping out our favourite modding group in some way.. or could be donating.
Apart from the possible legal issues I still don't see why modders would charge for a mod. I've been modding since the SCGT days and the reason I started it was because it's fun. It takes a lot of time to do a mod, we've been working on WSGT2 for a few years now. But we do it out of passion and enthousiasm. If we'd be charging money, we'd also have the obligation to do a proper job to justify the 5 or 10$ people would be paying for it. That also creates a lot of extra pressure that I'd rather not have. At the end of the day for me it's just an other hobby, something to do in my spare time. Just like playing football and seeing friends.
Well, this so called "pressure" that you would be under, would be put there by yourselves. See, creating a mod for money does not create pressure. You're not a company with investors. As you said, you do this for fun. So I don't see how there could be any pressure at all. You call your own shots, you create your own timeline, and if the public has to wait longer because the mod isn't finished, what's the loss? There is no loss. The public just has to wait longer. The pressure is self induced. If I were to create a mod and ultimately charge for it, I wouldn't announce it until I knew that it had been at least 90% completed, and tested. I don't think that just because money is involved that you are somehow obligated to any sort of deadline. Even corporations miss deadlines. Mods have always taken awhile to create because, as you said, it's a hobby. For most people, that is. I just don't see how money being involved changes any of that.
It is self induced. Call it a moral obligation to make something that is worth of being sold. No there's no such pressure, as long as I have fun while building it i'm happy.
this two things don´t match Hi there! I wonder how some people seem to be so happy to wanting to pay for several things.... First the exaggerated positive reaction to the multiplayer-thingy that ISI planned and now the mods! Don´t you know how to get rid of your money? I know what work modding means, for I do it (for) myself. I personally would only pay for professional, licensed content. And that´s the point: Do you really want to go through those licensing drama? I bet that is more work and nerve-racking than doing the mod itself! And (Petros) don´t you think that bashing would become harder or more if the user payed for the mod? That´s the different for instance to iRacing: That people go out and measure the real car and look how it drive (I guess)- They collect real data and convert it to a high-detail model (what not means that they do everything correct). Or they laserscan a track and make a very accurate virtual version of it. That are things you can pay for. (I have nothing to do with iR!!!!!! One reason: too expensive - 15$ for one track is surely much too much!) It would make me sad when the modders would do this thing just because of the money! What you earn as a modder is satisfaction, pleasure and fun and hopefully some positive feedback. If you want money make it easyer for the people to do some donation to you (Flattr or so)! In my point of view modding is an affair of the heart and should be done because of doing some good to other people and beeing a part of the scene. kind regards pete
Interesting post. I saw that Audi R18 in project Cars without Audi logo (SMS are working on licences) BUT it's full blown Audi R18 without a doubt only the Audi logo is missing but they're already selling the alpha version, so basically it's a commercial product without paying licences.. I guess they'll pay them later.. but is it teorically possible? Building the same exact car as in real life, just don't use the logo and the manifacture's name and then sell the mod? Another example: I saw the Formula Reiza which is basically a RedBull F1 with no redbull logo and sponsors, they call it "Formula Reiza" but it's a RedBull. Are they paying licences to Mateschitz or not? You know what I mean, if this trick is possible, the name can be changed in less than 3 seconds in the .veh file, The logo just need different skins and the car is done. Sound too easy to be true but anyway let's discuss about it. On a side note, as some of you probably know, Silk Gaming have a deal with McLaren for free-to-play racing title powered by Image Space Incorporated’s gMotor 2 engine and laser scanned tracks. Interesting, free to play and laser scanned tracks, (where they'll get money from? Banners?) anyway I hope they'll kick some iRacing's ass.
In my opinion mods should be released with the attitude of 'Here's something I/we made for ourselves and you're welcome to try it. If you don't like it then don't use it'. There are far to many people in the sim racing community who have an inflated sense of self worth and tend to believe that a product is only released to please them so it damn well better be what I want or else you're gonna hear all about it. Need a thick skin in this modding community.
µ I dont think you understand what i am referring to Petros. Of course Modding teams can become a licensed company. Its also so that Modding teams can deliver a quality product. But that was not the topic in my reply. Read my first reply , then the second.
When this thread was first posted I like some others first thought was "Oh no here we go" But now reading through the posts it hasn't been the disaster we first expected it be. Of cause we have differing views but there's been merit in either argument whether for or against. My hats off to the great majority of post. I know this is off topic but it has been a big part of the discussion and that is groups and the community working towards a common goal. I for one would love to see a lot more cooperation between mod teams. Unfortunately this is not always the case. I'm with two mod group. I'm just a painter and do the liveries, driver, eg. eg. so I have time to work with two groups. There are veering differences between these two group alone the lines between Graphic and Physics. I've tried to, And asked one to help the other without success. One says Yes we'll help the other says no thanks. Or in another case a team have developed something we would like to implement when asked about it, The reply was no. (Not between the same two groups) Of cause it's their call at the end of the day but my point is despite all the good having teams work together and help, share new developments it's not as easy as it sounds.
yup but unfortunately this is not the general feeling when you make something. In my point of view there is one main reason who explain this. If we look what happen this last 4-5 years, simracers don't have a lot of commercial products to play. so, automatically, the community ask to modders to make some professionnal work. if we want to be optimistic : it's nice because this means we can find some high quality mods/tracks if we want to be pessimistic : ask always more and more to the modders is impossible. and i just want to add something, important i think. today the simulation, and obviously, rfactor "normal" or pro take a large place in motorsport. A lot of modding teams have some contacts to make their work with some real teams, drivers etc. Everybody in this little world make his best to offer something nice and realistic at their contacts and the community. The goal is to make something well, and nothing else. Imagine tomorrow if you add the money in this situation... do you really think a modding team won't choose as priority to have some beautiful screens and videos rather than good physics ? and what will prove the job is done correctly ? a driver who has a tshirt with the game logo who say "oohh it's awesome" ? i don't say that a commercial project can't be better than a free one. i'm just saying : concerning some aspects, professional work don't underwrite better quality. But let's see what ISI will do about this point. Today, honnestly, make a game based on rfactor1 is a commercial suicide. The piracy is a real problem. Maybe with rf2 we will have more mods/games like game stock cars, arca, superleague formula etc.
Let's say if they have a pack of 10 cars they better release a promo car for free and limited period of time, let's say 15days. If I don't like the way it feels they wont see money from me, and no demo = no purchase. Anyway what about the Formula Reiza (RedBull) license "trick"? Just curious.
Great thread guys; i'm not able to properly reply here because my poor English knowledge but..i'm following discussion with a big interest. +1 this is a big point.
