GT/Forza users would have to first: - Transfer their loyalties to a full-on simulation. Most GT/Forza drivers I know don't have that kind of patience or just aren't interested. - Get the right platform or have a capable PC. - Know that rFactor exists in the first place. - Want to transfer from games that already give them what they want. - To not only pay for rFactor but then pay for the cars they want. Even given that that's not my main argument, my main argument is that you simply cannot license all of those cars. Aside from anything else these manufacturers already have promotional strategies, contracts signed and so forth. A very lucky group may get one or two manufacturers (at best) to license a couple of cars, (and they'd better have damn good past form) but even given that you will not get that entire list of cars. More, you'd better believe there'll be contracts and stipulations in place where they essentially dictate what you can and cannot replicate. It's no co-incidence that most cars as represented in Gran Turismo are actually far more capable than they are in real life.
It amazes me how many people live in a dream world. common sense would surely make it clear you cant charge for mods. When you do its not a mod anymore but a commercial product. 50% in here seems to have no idea of the consequences of that. Like some in here said. If you want to reward the modding team, do a secret donation. But i know from experience that not allot of people do that, when it does not generate a Status. This thread is going places it should not go.
guineapggy You seems too closed minded and don't know the comunity very well, in gtplanet they main forum of GT5, there is a wide range of users: from casual players, to rfactor / iracing regular sim racers. They know what a simulator is don't worry. Oh and Project Cars could prove you are wrong next year, so let's just wait and see what they'll bring to the table. This is what they officially licensed so far: GUMPERT apollo sport Palmer Jaguar JP-LM Ariel Atom Ariel Atom Mugen Ariel Atom V8. No I wont bother with links, you can check at virtualr.
Uh, about that, Project CARS is not a mod for RF2 and even if it was it doesn't exist as a commercial product. There is no success story because there is no finished product yet, so your raising it here is utterly irrelevant in more than one way. Perhaps if I'd said nobody can license any cars for any game you'd have a point but I didn't and can only suspect you didn't actually read anything properly. As for 'don't know the community very well' I know it way better than you and you've failed to address any points I've raised directly so I can only assume you don't actually want a discussion. You seem to be repeating yourself over and over as it is. The very idea that a mod group could secure the rights to that many supercars of that much notoriety from that many manufacturers so that they could put them in rFactor 2, an action which would attract a commercially significant amount of people who don't own the game or any titles quite as in-depth, let alone the payware expansion, for a platform they're not currently gaming on... do you not see where I'm going with this? If you want a population sample just look at how many negative responses the idea of payware mods has gotten in this tread alone compared to positive ones, let alone people pledging 30 euros. Mathematics: Strart with the number of people who play GT/Forza Take the fraction of those people who'd enjoy full on sim gaming Tale the fraction of those people who have a PC capable of running rFactor Take the fraction of those people who know what rFactor is Take the fraction of those people who'd play rFactor Take the fraction of those people who'd pay for rFactor Take the fraction of those people who'd be lured in by the extra content, free or not Take the fraction of those people who would pay the additional fee for the content You end up with a very very small number and that's all based on the unlikely contingency that someone gets the rights to every car you've suggested and that there aren't competent free versions of a good number of those cars. Hell, even if you averaged an amazing 1/2 for every variable, (here's a hint - you won't get close) you'd still be looking at less than 1% of GT/Forza owners. Another factor to consider is this - how long before Autodesk becomes (rightfully) narked? Do you know how much 3DSMax costs? Do you know just how many modders actually paid for their copy of 3DSMax? Of their texturing software of choice? I could go on.
I don't see any problem with add ons that are paid for? i also use flight sims alot and there are loads of mods that you can buy, and most of the bought ones are a much better quality? So to answer the thread question, Yes i would pay for a good mod/add on, as for price - it all depends what you get Simon
Different software, different exposure, different environments. Sim racing, as niche as it is, is far more widespread than flight simulation. If something upsets us we just go down the road to the next piece of software/mod. We typically deal with series' where people pay between thousands and tens of millions to get their name on people's cars, in a sport driven by commercialism the licensing issues and pitfalls could give a team of lawyers a headache, not to mention that series' like F1 and car manufacturers tend to sign exclusive deals with people. That's right, Codemasters have the exclusive contract to produce any official F1 games for quite a few years, not to mention the limitations such 'partners' may put on your time/efforts - just look at how much the GT series struggled to get even a crude damage system included, and GT is the single most popular semi-simulation racing game on the planet. There may be a handful of pieces of payware that bring in a small amount of revenue. There is no living to be had there, for most there's likely barely even beer money in fact. If someone wants to make even partially serious money they should follow the Reiza/Simbin/etc. route and buy the rights to an engine, get the rights to produce a series and put a capable team together. I can tell you for nothing if that sounds easy to you you're going to fail at it too.
Well i did buy Most of Hudson Kerrs awesome track graphics for rFactor one, and still use them, they were very good have been worth every penny, so I am happy to pay for good work but I do understand the licening problems with some motorsports, and copywrite problems that go together with selling mods that make a profit from them
Lol of course Project Cars is not a mod for rF2 lol, it's direct competitor of rFactor 2 in pc market and what I was talking about? Commercial DLC's for rFactor2 DLC, add-ons as you wonna call it. Seems like you are the one who is missing something dude. Ok you are getting even more ridiculous now, try to deny in every way the potential of a product because is not finished yet, well that's kinda loughable. And no, to me is not utterly irrelevent an officially licensed Gumpert Apollo. Oh and I give you a news even ISI has officially-licensed some cars, ever heard about Chevrolet Corvette, Nissan GT-R, Panoz?... it's pretty damn obvious get licensing is not that easy. Obviously nobody expecting the entire car list from Forza/GT but still, pc developers (and their competitors) have something going on. Will be loughable if you dany that. SimBin licensed some very good stuff for the old GTR Evo /Race07: Aston Martin, Chevrolet, Koenigsegg, Gumpert a Seat Cupra GT, Saleen, Lister Storm, Dodge Viper, the WTCC championship etc. They also released a DLC with a Pagani Zonda R, a Matech Ford GT and a BMW M3 GT2, which is basically what I was talking about in the first post. They just didn't outsourced, they do it themselves.
Oooh, Hudson, now there's a can of worms... let's say you're in a minority there and try to avoid the flame war that his name brings. *Bangs head against wall* Hokay, look, you've completely missed the discussion boat and I'm not going to help you back on. Enough. I'm done with you.
Nah you just can't accept people who doesn't think like you. I'm well aware of exclusive licences, EA love to be such an a$$hole, Pagani Huraya, Porsches... but EA have arcade purposes. SimBin made something interesting, they made their DLC and their decent money from it. If you tell me nobody else can license a similar amount of cars, brands, tracks because of Microsft and Sony, well let me say I can't agree with you. I don't know what's ISI future plans will be, but they better encourage their mod comunity. If they don't want to buy other licences they'll need them.
GSC sold for how much? Arca Sim Racing is $50. I own ASR. So yeah I guess fifty dollars. So people will pay those prices. Don't tell me these titles aren't mods of rF because they are. They are good mods! but still mods. ASR has the best tire model out of any rF mod or rF so just so you know I'm not bashing it. It's one of my fav. sims of all time. Now if of the the nascar modders were say to charge 50 cents for their rFactor mods I wouldn't pay that. I wouldn't touch any of that stuff for free. So it all depends if it's quality stuff or not. If it's licensed etc......
Perhaps if the title of this thread was changed from "What would you pay for a great mod?" to "How much do you donate for a great mod?" I think would make much more sense, help avoid the legal problems associated with selling, and start getting simracers thoughts into the right space Modders are what made rf1 awesome and gave it longevity, we should stop being so tight-assed and help the modders. Quality modders will get the donations and help them produce more quality mods
Obviously the huge issue of unlicensed copyright infringing content would mean some serious legal problems - that aside - it will be like a Goods & Services Tax. The mod charges will start relatively cheap (let's call it base price) and they will only ever increase the cost of purchasing the mods. Like GST, once the ball is rolling and it's generally accepted it will never be taken away; and the base price for a mod purchase will only ever increase. Once the modders realise it's becoming quite profitable, give it a few years and the cost of mods will have become almost as expensive to purchase as the game itself. But of course this is just hypothetical, not considering the serious legal implications of effectively running a business with illegal use of content.
I would be happy to pay for mods if that could be feasibly done ie., licensed and secured content. I think it would be great if people were able to make their living by building cars and tracks if that's what they really want to do. I would pay $5 for a single car with around 8 skins or so. Maybe $10 for a four or five-car mod and $20 for more cars but I think that would be my limit. I would also pay $5 for a high quality course and $10 for a longer course like Le Mans. As for my team(s) charging for our work - that is extremely unlikely. We are hobbiests and want to remain so. I have previous experience with making my hobby my business and it didn't go very well - I ended up hating the hobby. Others on the team have had similar experiences so it is not likely to happen with us. I have nothing against other people or teams who want to go that route though.
No, they are not mods. One does not need to have RF installed or even own it so, by definition, they are not mods. GTR, GTR2, GTL, and the Race games also use(d) ISI's engine and they aren't mods either for the very same reason.
I am not going to change the thread title, nor does it need to be changed. I asked the question because it was being talked about. As you can clearly see, the community is somewhat divided on how they feel about charging/paying for mods. Forums are set in place for the purposes of discussion. That is what this thread is here for. Discussion. Personally I think charging for mods is a bad idea. Does that mean that teams shouldn't do it? Absolutely not. I feel that there are very talented people in this community and if this allows them to express themselves artistically and make some extra cash while doing it, I think that's great. My only concern is legality. Not the legality of the mods themselves, but the legal issues brought on by selling ANY product. You'll always have someone that wants their money back because they aren't satisfied with what they bought. I think there needs to be some sort of system set in place for things like this. Only time will tell. Generally, I think the community has handled this discussion very well. It's nice to know that people are still passionate about certain things.
Excuse me? just because they charge for it doesn't change the fact that its a mod, it just becomes a commercial mod. It doesn't automatically stop it from being a mod. To not be a mod and be a commercial product as you so call it, it would have to be its own complete product and not made as an extension of rFactor. You may want to get your facts straight before trying to sound like you know everything. Secondly, you all talk about licenses. Mod groups can just as easily do what ISI did with rF1. Use hybrid cars with hybrid names and allow the community to edit them and release skin packs as they see fit. Doing that would negate the entire necessity of acquiring a license. People will still understand what the car is meant to represent, community skinners will release real life skins for free, everyone will mod it enough to change the names of the series and drivers in their individual games, so the modding world can get away with it in that way. So lets not all sit here and say, oh modders are living in a dream world, they cannot ever make it happen. If they wanted to, they could, they just have to follow the same loopholes that most companies including ISI have done over the years with hybrid content. If a mod like CTDP, VLM etc which was very high quality was charged for, yes I'd pay for it. I don't see why not. Though at the current moment I cannot see myself or my group ever charging for mods, even hybrid mods.
Sorry I probably didn't put enough "tongue in cheek" or smileys in my post lol, it wasn't a serious suggestion at all Back to the question though, would I pay for a good mod, Yep I would, probably would'nt want to pay much I guess, maybe $10-$20 or something like that but I recognise the enourmous amount of work and testing that goes into making a good quality mod. Do I like the idea of moddders charging though.. hmmm not overly, it would appear to open up all sorts of legal problems. Donations seems a better solution on the face of it, those that appreciate the work, and can afford to, donate. Those that can't afford it or don't appreciate it, don't.. Unfortunately human nature being what it is, we don't donate as much as we should, donations just don't work effectively partly due to laziness, partly due to complacency and the rest probably down to just being a tight-ass
Valid points. F1GP by Microprose all those years ago is a good example of that. However, how much are people willing to spend? Buy 1 mod and a few tracks and suddenly you've paid more than the price of the initial game. It quickly becomes a very expensive game. One of rFactor 2's selling points is it's customisation. When customisation ends up costing the same or more than iRacing, one of rF2s strongest suits is redundant. People will then ask themselves, ''why should I spend the same amount of money for amateur work when I can buy real licensed content with all the frills for the same amount?'' This obviously doesn't apply to the dedicated rF2 fans, but believe it to be true for the average sim racer.
