What is best program for track building?

Discussion in 'Track Modding' started by SmokinJo65, Jan 15, 2012.

  1. SmokinJo65

    SmokinJo65 Registered

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    Ok been designing golf courses for ages for some golf game manufactures (Using there software and not MAX) and want to try my hand at designing a track that will work in rFactor2. I realize it's still early but I do believe the DEVS here use 3dsmax for track design and if they can get it to work surely we can get tracks to work in game as well. I know my friend has been having troubles trying to get a MOD to work but seems he has to redo about 50 billions things differently to get that same RF1 track to work in RF2 and this worries me because I'll be using some objects used in other convertible tracks (race07, RF1, GTR2, Sim-Raceway) you name it there are tons of objects and textures to use already and I have a ton also from designing 3d golf courses for many years so I doubt I would need many. I believe most objects or textures could be used if the track wasn't sold for profit.

    Anyways, I tried out Bobs Track Builder tonight and while it seems kind of easy it's almost a $100 US which is absolutely ridicules I think, I already have 3dsmax 9 and 12 and seen some videos on how to go about it on youtube and while I think I could do it BTB seems to much easier. A couple tutorials I seen for 3dsmax the person went so darn fast that I bet he forgot he is actually trying to teach instead of trying to break a record for the fastest tutorial ever..lol

    I really want to do this but am nervous for some reason, my friend always keeps getting "Problem MOD" when trying to follow a supposed tutorial to help get it in RF2 but still doesn't work. I want to build a track but am worried it might not convert into the RF2 if he is having problems. Also what do you even export it out to? I guess I should really watch more videos (hopefully there's more) or I'll see if anyone has webpages with tutorials out there.

    If anyone could give me advice that would be great, I can design a great golf course but trying something new and in a program I don't know much about is scaring the **** out of me..lol

    Joe
     
  2. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    BTB doesn't support rF2, but it is great tool for rF1. 3DS Max is the tool you ought to use creating tracks. You should really start with simple basics so that you can learnt using the software and learn how to make tracks at the same time.
     
  3. mianiak

    mianiak Registered

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    Have a look in the track modding section of the rfactor 2005 forum, there are plenty of tips in there to help build tracks in max for rfactor. Its the same basic principle for rf2.
     
  4. kleanphil

    kleanphil Registered

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    I think ive read you can use BTB for making the track then export to 3dmax to make it a bit easier, but not sure
     
  5. SmokinJo65

    SmokinJo65 Registered

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    Yeah I read about that to somewhere but could find no export to 3ds or max format but could export it out to rF1 but said screw it..lol, tonight I have been just gathering stuff and tomorrow I am going to read all the tutorials I found and video's to watch and see if I can get something done. I already installed my older version of 3dsMax 9 instead so I could use the shader plugins because they said they have not made them for 2012 yet. My basic goal is just to make the track and get textures on it plus fill in the infield with faces or polys or whatever you need to do and do this on the outside as well just like in Bobs Track Builder..lol

    Once I get that done then I'll move onto trying my hand at making some elevations, then seeing if I can somehow pull off a miracle and export it somehow to try to get it into rF2 beta to test it out. I know a lot of you are pro's at the rF1 stuff so importing this stuff into rF2 beta is probably a breeze..lol

    Joe
     
  6. freew67

    freew67 Registered

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    I suggest get a basic track in game and working (xsectors, aiw, tdf, etc). Once you grasp the concept of what needs to be done then you can start to work on the eye candy. Waste of time trying to make stuff look purdy if you have no idea what your doing. Once you get the basics of max down, everything else is easy. Exporting for rF1 is exactly the same as rF2, just dif plugins. Just for example, I already had one of my tracks in rf1 in max. Installed plugins, open max file, selected objects and exported. Few adjustments in files and had my first track in rf2 in about 30-35 mins. I saw you added me on Youtube, check out my forum for some links to max tuts. Good luck!

    FYI, this can be addictive!!!
     
  7. SmokinJo65

    SmokinJo65 Registered

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    Well actually I was reading your tutorial on setting up max putting the plugins in and exporting the shaders with MAS to the hardware shaders folder which I did but no GMT Converter was found in the More box but I believe it is my fault, I didn't want to install my old Max8 so I got Max11 from my friend thinking I heard somebody else got there Max10 plugins to work in Max11 but since I cannot see that converter that must be the problem, I think I will have to install Max8 tomorrow, just don't want to work in that old as heck program..lol, others are so much faster. :D

    Think I'll watch a few of your videos before I go to bed, thanks for helping.
     
  8. blakboks

    blakboks Registered

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    Yeah, I've done that, myself. I started off in BTB, and exported to .x format, and imported it into 3DSMax. After having worked a little bit with BTB, it seems that you can do everything that it does in 3DSMax without too much more difficulty, and with a LOT more precision. For the track surface itself, it's easy enough to use lofting in 3DSMax and get the same functionality that you do with BTB. Except, in 3DSMax you can actually enter numerical values for all of your control vertices, so you gain that added precision.

    Plus, 3DSMax has much better spline-editing functionality. So you can create arcs that have a constant radius, without having to "eyeball" it. Of course, if you're just looking to make something quickly, you can do all that as well. One of my pet peeves with some of the tracks I've seen is corners that don't have the right contour. Because of the way that bezier curves work a lot of time, it's easy to get curves whose radius is not constant when it should be. When you're zoomed out, a curve may look ok, but once you start driving it, your turn-in points and apexes change. I know that I'm a bit guilty of that as well with the track that I'm working on (like I said, started out in BTB), but at least my track is a fictional track. So, I can just say "that's how it's designed" :D.

    Also note that BTB's development has significantly stagnated. It might even be dead in the water. Last I heard, Brandon Pywell (the creator) had no plans to continue development, but might be willing to sell its technology to another developer. (I believe he posted this himself on RaceDepartment). So, yes, paying $100 for a software that's no longer supported is quite a risk to take. He's also very hands-off with the licensing of it now. You select how long you would like to go between renewing your activation of the software. If you happen to to change a piece of hardware on your computer and it changes your hardware key, you can be locked out of the software until the end of the activation cycle. Plus, even if you select a short period of time (I believe 1 month is minimum), I've found it typically takes about a day to receive your new activation key. So, it isn't like you can instantly renew it once your activation has expired. If you only have weekends to work on your track, that puts a pretty severe damper on your development.

    I think the software has potential, but the way it stands right now, I would recommend you avoid it and just use 3DSMax if you have access to it.
     
  9. SmokinJo65

    SmokinJo65 Registered

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    Yeah, I am going to use 3dsmax to work on tracks. I actually tried to open an older race07 course (Zolder09) because I absolutely love that road course and even having the GameData\Locations folders correct to what the .trk file says it still won't open in 3dSimED but my friend can open it easy so I have no idea what I did wrong, I doubt it can be from me having the demo version and his is a registered version because I have open .scn files and looked at them, even looked at Zolder from rFactor1 but that version has smallish textures so the quality is not very good but the track itself looks good and mostly correct but I exported it to 3ds and when importing it in all textures and objects and such came in all gray with no texture assignments. I'll most likely start on something small now following freew76's video tutorials because we have a track here that is almost just like his figure 8 track called RaceWay Park and it's the same size as his track so following should be easy. If I ever want to race Zolder in rFactor2 it looks like I will have to do that from scratch instead of relying on an great import since it doesn't work for me.
     
  10. freew67

    freew67 Registered

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    76? That was my buddies number, I was next to him as 67 :) Are you talking about my little fig 8?
     
  11. SmokinJo65

    SmokinJo65 Registered

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    LOL.. Yes seen I messed the name up now.

    Yeah talking about that little figure 8, should be easy to do since I am following your tutorials and sometimes I have to go back and re-watch it again but I am picking it up a bit easier now so your doing a damn fine job with the tutorials. I am going to just follow your tutorials or as much that's there right now and then start on my own track which will be called Anoka Raceway, we use to have a Anoka Dragways back in the 60's I guess but that got tore down in the late 70's or something for housing so I want to kind of put a fantasy track in that area again which is only about 5 miles from my house. I am hoping for it to be around 2.5-3.5 miles long and since I love Zolder and Monza so much in Race07 I think I'm going to mix parts of both of them in there.

    Here is a pic of the little figure 8, go figure it's 22 meters between the middle just like in your video and 90 meters wide.
    View attachment 649

    Joe
     
  12. Guineapiggy

    Guineapiggy Registered

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    BTB's getting somewhat of a hard time here, (and is a little misunderstood too) so I'll say one or two things in its defense:

    - You can use it to develop for RF2 if you export to 3DS first.
    - You can enter numerical X/Y/Z values and use non-bezier curves.

    That being said a track made exclusively with BTB won't match one that has actual attention from a modelling program. I use BTB to get layouts and then use the layout I've created in a 3D program. Development for BTB does indeed appear to have died but it's still a nice piece of kit... though it's easier for me to say as I paid $10 for it because I donated to the development before it became payware, thus I got a license when it became payware without parting with a big sum. I do agree that ol' Piddy probably set his asking price too high.

    What's actually important is what you're comfortable working with and can get the most mileage out of. As the saying goes a bad workman blames his tools. You can literally model a track in anything that can export polygonal models in the right formats so it's only a matter of using something like 3DS for the compilation and texturing of elements if you don't like 3DS, though it is the tool of choice for many modders.
     
  13. SmokinJo65

    SmokinJo65 Registered

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    I agree, BTB is pretty damn good and I'd use it more if I could pay for it but I haven't had a job in over 2 years and can't seem to find one so I'm glad the wife makes good money till I can find one. Paying for something is very, very hard when it comes to almost $100 for a program and I don't care how much time you have put into it. $30 I would have bough it in a instant and I can see why he charges but it is just a bit high for me. I could make all kinds of tracks for the next 18 days..lol, but figured I need to learn it in Max anyways so why not start out now, freew67 has some great videos, I have tons of textures from my golf designs, there are tons of textures and models out there from other tracks as well.

    I have 2 questions..

    1. In freew67's video about material editor setup he exported a box which I did correctly as well and is a piece of cake to export but he said something about the Vis Group area that when he clicked on the F (32) it will make objects no appear in the mirror, is there a text file or something that explains which letter does what so I can export correctly, would this box or objects not appear in the mirror because you would not see it in the mirror anyways or to save performance mostly? That's the only part of that tutorial I didn't understand, I wrote a comment down in the YouTube video but maybe I didn't hit submit even though I thought I did because the message is not there so figured I'd write it down here. I signed up for his forum as well but never got an email yet and can't sign in either, he may have it setup that he has to approve it first with no email confirmation.

    2. Ok say I am building a track from scratch and want to import a grandstand object (gmt file), I don't think 3dsmax can import them even though now I can export one from within 3dsmax. Do I need to open it in 3dSimED first and re-texture it since they do not load with there textures on?

    I do want to thank you all for helping me, I really want to make a great track, I have been racing on iRacing for a couple years now and while it's a great Sim I do believe rFactor2 is going to be just as good and if not better because the immersion I get from rFactor2 (just like Race07 which I love as well) is so much better because of animations, changing weather and so on that just seem static in iRacing and while there adding some thing to help it I think I'm growing tired of it. I have designed golf courses like Hazeltine National and Augusta National for a golf game called World Golf Challenge/Hank Haney's World of Golf Online so I know the dedication and time it takes to produce something good and while there design software was good it wasn't true MAX or CAD quality/SCARY so many thanks to anyone that helps me along on this journey.

    His is a screenshot of my golf course The Wisley near London, UK (real course)
    View attachment 653
     
  14. freew67

    freew67 Registered

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    1. Let me look to see if I have something and I have no idea if that transfers over to rf2. Correct on my forum. I like to see who signs up plus make an attempt at blocking spam. My forum is junk (Snitz 2000) but since its free I cant complain. Your account is good to go. F or Vis Group 32, basicaly to save on performance. If I find the doc Im looking for Ill just post it in my forum.

    2. If your using rf1 tools, get the gmt import tool. Put the gmt and tex in the same folder to make your life easier.

    Cool deal on the golf stuff. Never heard of that but did waste a lot of time in Shot Online. lol

    And your welcome... people helped me when I was a noob. Only fair to help the others who want to learn. The track in my vid with the figure 8 is Flat Rock Speedway.
     
  15. blakboks

    blakboks Registered

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    True. After rereading my post, I realize it sounds like I was saying you couldn't put in values for ANY control point. You certainly can for the track center line and other "driving lines". However, you cannot put values in for the cross-sections.

    I think there's a lot of nice things about BTB as well. If you already have assets made that you're happy with, then it's probably MUCH faster to work in BTB vs. Max. However, it's a bit tougher to iterate assets, because of its xpacks system. There's probably work-arounds, like just overwriting the .gmts, but in that case you need 3dsmax, anyway (and need to have its position in the right spot). I like BTB's terrain snapping feature--it makes it easy to place objects in the scene. It's definitely a lot easier to create things like rumble strips and walls/fences, again, because of its terrain snapping. Of course, the one-click export to rFactor with AIW and CAM and everything is fantastic. So, yes, it does save you time, and it is easy to work with (for some things). What I mentioned above was just the sort of things I wish somebody had told me before I bought it. But I prefer more precision and control at the expense of a little steeper learning curve.
     
  16. mianiak

    mianiak Registered

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    I can't agree with BTB being that useful, sorry, in all respect I'm only being honest. I used to be a BTB fanboy until development died off, I still have all the respect in the world for Piddy and I understand his predicament, I owe it to him for getting me started in this sort of stuff, without BTB I wouldn't be where I am today and I am forever grateful to Piddy for that. But unfortunately that doesn't progress things. People need to move forward. Plus, importing BTB mesh into max gives you triangles which make it real hard to work with.

    Anyway, all these things do what BTB does they aren't harder to use, just the usual learning curve. Most of the needed tools are in max itself, some you need to go find plugins to do. It's missing a gps/gpx importer, there are a few around somewhere though, I just haven't been able to find them. There is an xyz importer though.


    http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/detriangulator
    http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/move-to-surface
    http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/scripts/mouseplanter
    http://www.scriptspot.com/3ds-max/s...ts-on-spline-or-data-properties-of-any-object
    http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/136-Re-encouraging-track-modeling?p=18990&viewfull=1#post18990 (2 videos one after the other, probably the most important things to track making in max) Infact read through that whole thread, lots of good info.
    http://www.mbdevteam.com/download/Tutorials/index.html
     
  17. kleanphil

    kleanphil Registered

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    The reason i'm interested is i have 5 real track layouts that took a while to get close to accurate.Im happy to use 3dmax but didnt want to waist that work
     
  18. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    I agreee with mianiak here.

    I used top build tracks with BTB also, and honestly I was pretty devastated when I found out that BTB is not very rF2 compatible. I really thought that my track building days are gone. Well it was 2 days ago, and now I've already made a test track with Max and now I am making first "proper" track already. Of course it has helped that I have experience on making cars with Max for rF, so there is a lot same techniques that apply for track making too. I have to thank Piddy too, because it was BTB that drew me into rF modding in first place. And if the BTB beta license would have never dead, I would not have started car modding with Max, and I would not be here either :D But I still want to get back to BTB too, since I want to finish my Pyhäranta track project with help of 3DS Max.
     
  19. SmokinJo65

    SmokinJo65 Registered

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    Ok gmt import working fine and was able to import a car.gmt file with a bunch of cars and bus's in it. I guess I am typing this and forgetting to check the rest of the forum posts because I may have seen this already but I would imagine that after importing I would just follow what you have done by just assigning all the textures to shader t1 then hit copy all and then export the model back out again? I'd just like to have a few models to choose from on my own track creation within Max. I could open the file as well in 3dSimED so I guess that's another way of doing it? I guess I have many questions as I'd like to get started but after watching a couple more of your videos I got confused as to which way is best because now I seen the lofting video using the spline so there are 2 ways to make a track now? I could have used your forum and asked but why not ask here because there are many more who could answer.

    I think I need to read some more tutorials first before asking so many questions because I have more but all in due time.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2012
  20. freew67

    freew67 Registered

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    I just went in and double checked, yes you can import/t1/export. I would say 90% of the time you shouldnt have an issue. 100% of the time would be in the rFactor spirit. I use ffd's 99% of the time to create my track mesh. Granted 99% of my tracks are ovals. Im going to guess a handful of others on here use splines. At that, Im sure there are multiple different ways to do both. Great news huh!!! Do some layouts with both and see which one gives you that warm cozy feeling. Each one you can end up with the same outcome. Im sure others could chime in with slightly dif ways but Im going to assume those are the 2 most popular.
     

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