What I believe to be wrong with the RF2 tire model / grip levels / lack of control

From all of this talk on the subject, I have finally concluded that what James is talking about is not tire grip at all. What he is saying is tire grip, but what he is meaning is friction coefficient. He and a couple of others feel that there isn't enough friction between tires and race surface, or any surface for that matter.

I say this because friction is what determines if you can safely do a 4 wheel drift, not tire grip levels. Friction is also what is used to be able to step the rear out without completely spinning the car. Tire grip levels on the other hand are by the definition of physics on/off/on. It only takes microseconds to lose 100% grip. Friction is what we depend on to get us back into shape.

Of course he also is arguing about how he can feel the rear stepping out through the FFB of the wheel in NKP and that is just not real in any sense as the wheel should only be transmitting what the front tires are feeling, not what the rear is as well. The only exception to this would be if you lose the back end completely, you would feel the wheel wanting to counter steer a little for you before you hit the wall.

 

You are 100% blind to what we are talking about

"very five pages of this post... a different point of view, "

Tell me where i have given a different piont of view ?

" I'm still waiting something that you can't do with this cars in rFactor 2"

I have told you about 5 times now , YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SAME CONTROL OVER THE CARS AS YOU DO A REAL CAR WHEN IT STARTS TO AND IS IN A SLIDE. yes you can get into a slide and yes you can pull it back but you cannot sustain a drift as you can a real car evan if that drift is at 1 degree angle.

"I think you need to go play NKPro and stop arguing about this if you are so happy with It."

The point is I would like RF2 to be better that's the point of the forum and a BETA you might be happy with how it is now then if thats the case ISI should maybe stop development as its obviously good enough for you.


can you explain to me why all the simulators as they get better are getting gradually more progressive in grip loss and all are begging to give the sim racer more control over the car when it starts to slide if its not the case this is how real cars behave ?

 

every car I tried with the NTM in I racing was more progressive and stable , but even if you ignore I racing you are still left with all the other games becoming more progressive and controllable when the cars start to slide.

 

you are.................Absolutely JOKING.

i recently resubscribed to iracing, just to try out the NTM.
The cars have tons more balance, are more stable under braking and on initial turn on, and progressively much easier to control.

theres also a video in insidesimracing with dave kaemmer talking about the New tyre model, and specifically saying that players would indeed find it easier and more grippy........
Hmm....i wonder why they'd do that? oh thats right.....because its more realistic.

interview starts around 18 mins

 

I ask again, have you watched my reaplay or video? or have I to create a MoTeC screen showing you slide angle? I don't know how to calculate slide angle, but I can learn thanks a friend I have that works eventually in a F3 team (he is very good doing setups and interpretating telemetry logs).

You can sustain microsliding, better in older cars, and almost imperceptible in the GT1 (like you say, few degrees).

Edit: in telemtry logs, you can see 3-10% of wheel slide all time with GTR for example, I don't know other because I haven't seen that logs. I will try to calculate real slide angle respect to the car movement line (yaw I think)

Edit2: Youtube comment about NTM:

"In the 09 car, that is the fastest way around, sliding and drifting, with lots of corrections (I think is like NKP, or gradually lost of grip). The new car, due to the new tire model has to be driven in a much more smooth way. You can see the difference here very well if you compare the steering input between cars."

More stable and gripy don't mean more gradually grip loses.

Sorry about too many edits... I fight with my english

 

When I posted a clip with 370z you said I wasn't putting ANY throttle and had to wait. But I clearily wrote I was using throttle and you could hear that in the video.
Now you see a clip of a car where you can't hear the engine (because it's a slow-mo replay) and you're saying he was powering through a slide. Have you seen telemetry or something?
When you posted Mark Webbers video explaining oversteer he was clearily saying he had to lift off and you were saying he was powering through a slide.

I could go on like this.

So how can you expect us to take your arguments seriously if you fail to see or hear such obvious things?

He also said:
"On the slick tyres, racing slicks, it definitely feels a little more knife-edge when you loose control, but you know, they're definitely catchable."

 

If its all just subjective opinion then what metric are ISI working against ?

How do ISI know what to improve ?

how can you then say you belive the GT1 is erratic ?

Obviously there is a subjective interpenetration of certain things but there are also underlying facts as well.

Its a Fact that some of the cars in RF2 right now dont gain and lose grip properly or behave like real cars , if they did then ISI would not be developing the tire model still.

 

Just one thing, the video posted it's from the beta preview of the NTM, more than one year ago.

At iRacing there are cars with good tyres, and cars with horrible tyres. They haven't still nailed it, and I think it's going to take some time.

 

I haven't driven iRacing NTM... but that you say It sounds nearest GTR of rF2 than NKP they are describing, gripy car with suddenly grip lost when you reach limits.

 

literally have no idea what youre on about. you must be confusing me with someone else.

 

well dont believe him because it ISNT TRUE IN THE SLIGHTEST. Go up to my post and check out the 2 vids.

I dont know what feels3 has been smoking.

 

I saw the video, and I saw a more gripy car. Old video looks like drifting car, and 2011 like a gripy car with snap corrections at grip losts I've seen in other videos, and not gradually slides (much more gradually grip lost in 2009 car I think). I don't see slides in your 2011 video, It looks like a clean lap with rF2 GTR for example , I talk about how It looks in a video.

 

Yes I watched your video how else did you think i responded to you with direct things relating directly to the video ?

Can you not see that each time you are getting into a slide you are hostage to that slide there is no deep control to it its a case of get into a slide wiggle steering done there is no depth and complexity its simply boring.

Have you ever played NKP ? Game stock car ? or are you basing everything of vannila RF1 and RF2 which both have similar issues.

 

For casual simracer can say "I drive better than a real racer"
For a slick the grip is binary, on/off, grip/no grip, that the real fact. It's for this reason that old F1 or RTrainer was easier to drive they've no slick tyre, and this tyres are more progressives.
Yes, drive with slick tyre it's more difficult, because with slick tyre when you lose grip, you lose grip suddenly. A real racer have an advantage he can feel when the rear lose grip with its ass, us not ! We can only feel that with eyes informations and a perfect knowledge of us car and track.

It's easy to test that for low price, Karting it's no very expensive. Try on dry and wet condition, with tyre with less adherence it's easiest to prevent the rear spun.

RF2 transcribed exactly this fact, a heavy weight car with slick and poor downforce, it's hard to prevent spin. And the absence of G force not help us for that.

 

You haven't seen It. If you pay attention, you can see slides without steer corrections, microslides in de middle of some turns (I'm not talking about visible slides with correction at corner exits). I don't know what you want to see, all time sliding? all time corrections? but that beahaviour is that I see in real videos, in the case of GT1. I repeat another one more time if you want to see more gradually grip lost, go to other cars, in this order, F1, FR, Megane/370, rTrainer, Historic cars. All different cars with different behaviours.

Edit: I played NKP, rFactor 1, rF2, and iRacing... GT5 too if it helps something (the most gradually grip lost of games I've played, despite not being a hard sim)

 

This comes to my mind always when I hear Karting: