What do we want with online racing

First off,I thought I'd post this here in general to hopefully reach more people,if the admins want this in the online section just say and I'll delete this thread and start it over there.

This will be a long one,sorry I know I should post less lol,but bare with me.

We are all no doubt very excited for the structured online racing system to be implemented,but info is short,and no surveys have been sent to the membership to ask what they would like within the structure,how serious they would like it etc.

Coming from iracing,I think s397 has the best opportunity out of all sims to make the best complete package on the market,physics,tyre model,ai online,content.

But I think they have a huge opportunity too,which can't be missed,to learn from the mistakes iracing have made with their online structure,see iracings sale pitch aside,the racing over their on a whole,baring top split maybe,is poor,and the reason for this imho is that they allow people to advance the licence ladder without learning a damn thing,you can get an a licence by starting from the pits and driving around at the back,just so you can gain sr to race the series that you want,this is most prevalent wether or not people like to admit it or not,and the bottom line is,if iracing were to make it harder to progress,they think it would hurt the sales of contents,which is true to a certain extent,but I as someone who wants serious racing,wouldn't mind of it took me a year to get out of rookies,instead of the 7days it took me and ten races.

Are s397 going for the same arcade style super lienient style that iracing has,basically pick up and play crash fests because there's no requirement for you to advance your driving standards on your way up,or are they going to make it a serious experience where you have to put effort in to actually progress,which would force the standards to only get better,this is what I hope for.

What do you guys expect or want from the online structure,really curious to hear people's thoughts.

Well that's my all I can manage tonight,my legs are going numb sitting on the throne,if people would think it useful I will add a poll tomorrow,and please advise what to option to add to that poll,let's try and get a view on what the membership would like to see added to this major addition to this sim.

Oh by all means too,if you think this a waste of time,then say and I will not carry it on

Option 1

Causal pick up and play means,qualifying and race scheduled every half hr time slots,so like 7mins qualifying and 15 mins races,or something similar,with lax rules and penalties,no champion ship involved or series points.

Option two

the same but with sterner rules and penalties,like track limits,incident count/limit,and getting booted when you reach those limits,series points and or championships apply.

Serious everything option -

Race scheduled once every hr or two,with a practice session,qualifying and race session all linked together,longer races with realistic rules and sanctions/penalties,strict code of conduct on track and off ( mic),with incidents and violations effecting your series score or licence,pit stops forced by starting fuel %,tyre choices and changeable weather.

 

I think public servers should have the option of filtering by license so they don't exclude rookies when trying to populate . At the same time be nice if leagues could filter rookies but still remain unlocked to attract good sized fields if they choose to?

 

Just need some kind of safety rating and a filter that can be used by the server to keep out the trolls, but add a white list in case there is someone new to the game that is trying to join a league or public server of a forum in case we know the person
They need to find a way to make it work with mods anyway, and make it work with all leagues. The roadmap sounded like selected groups only

 

I personally think the first step towards organised online races with a points systems would be similar to the Time Trial championship in iRacing. But rather than focusing on hot laps, it should focus on full length distance races (like 28 laps at Spa '66 in the Brabham) with changeable weather conditions, full 100% damage, and no AI. This has the following benefits:

1. It simulates driver skill and consistently over hot-lapping;
2. It gets around the problem of the lack of content needed to run a full-series;
3. It gives us something to aim for, a leaderboard, something that AC sorely lacks and thus limits its long-term value;
4. Full race distances fully capitalise on the strengths of rFactor; namely dynamic real road, changeable weather conditions, and mechanical failures.
5. The drivers who are able to complete the distance safely and within a certain time would be recognised for their safety and thus preference would be given to them to participate in online leagues if they so wanted.

To sum up, a full-distance time trial with 100% damage in changeable weather conditions would be his 'test', it would eradicate the need for licences, although each circuit he did this on, could further increase his license, although it should be split into four historic tracks or four modern tracks as most would prefer one or the other.

The fact that the player could choose his track/car from a list of presets would mean that he could focus solely on that one circuit, then move onto another to improve his licence, for example Spa '66 to Monaco' 66.

I'd be happy for the Brabham on the four historic tracks, with the same drivers I could feel confident racing on a weekly or fortnightly basis.

I personally disagree with your comments about iRacing. The Lotus 49 (aka GPL) series was one of, if not the the safest series in rFactor, and you only needed a Class C to participate. Most of the regulars could easily run 55 minutes at tricky tracks like Mosport without getting a single penalty point, the result was that those who only raced in that series had A licences pretty much constantly maxed out (I believe bordering at 5000). In iRacing, safe and courteous driving, which I believe is what we all want, was largely dependent on the series you drove in and the drivers who participated. I believe iRacing does a great job in a notoriously difficult genre to get right; one that involves drivers from all backgrounds and all abilities.

A key problem with iRacing was the ridiculous amount of time practicing each week for a new track, which is why I personally gave it up (plus the modern tracks were not at all suited to the Lotus 49 with their 90 degree chicanes every 200 metres or so).

I think all sim racers here are competitive, time-trials are the second best option to driver to driver races, it should be easier to implement and thus act as a stepping stone to further develop the online side into wheel to wheel championships.

 

Time trial is an interesting approach but finding a combo ( car/track) that appeals to all is challenging . Perhaps a few options ie. modern tin tops , historic open wheel , junior formula, Top tier Formula etc ??

 

I've just edited that post to make it clearer. The idea was to offer several combos as you stated, that way we could choose the ones we want. The licences awarded could be specific to that combo, and only used (if wheel to wheel championships were eventually introduced) in the corresponding series. In other words, someone who completed 28 laps in the Brabham at Spa '66 could not race in a modern series with modern electronic traction-controlled GT cars, and vice-versa. But the licensing idea was an afterthought, still needs to be properly thought out.

 

The option to allow say a junior open wheel license to still be able to run in top tier and League admins could run seperate QUAL sessions , helping lower tier guys to gain experience with the top guys .. all cool ideas, feasible or not l have no idea

 

I would like a driving school like GTR2 but with something new like Steam achievements. This can be a nice way to implement it, specific stages to complete in order to learn basics and when you obtain gold in a stage you unlock a steam achievement (in order to have an incentive and a way to track your progress,by this way achievements will have a purpose too).
Passing all the stages (with gold) will give you the rookie license, this is the first step to access the rating system. In order to advance to a better license you need to raise your rating, everytime you level up your rating will unlock another set of stages/achievements which once passed will give you access to a new better license. If your rating starts to go low you don't lose your licenses but you can't access the servers which requires a certain rating level.

 

1. We need more people online if anything.
2. No private servers. Having to register, download league content, make posts with multiple leagues... I just want to race.
3. More racing and less online-practice. Practice off line with AI. Test your wheel settings off line. Tune your suspension off line. Adjust your graphics off line.

I think it was 2 years ago, there was a server that ran 7min.Prac, 7min.Qual and a 15min.Race around the clock and it was open to public. Had voting for race restarts in case of a pile up in first corner. And it rotated 3 tracks. That was a lot of fun. You could come and go at your leisure and there was always action.

 

For structured online racing to work, you need a lot of automation. Leagues that run rF2 right now rely on lots of man effort, things like checking cuts, incidents, uploading replays and results, etc etc. Structured online racing as in iRacing took years to build and requires members to pay a monthly fee, so I don't think that kind of service is realistic for rF2. A good first step would be to make finding events easier and build some kind of safeguards against cheaters or wreckers (aka road rating). But I still think leagues are the way to go for any more serious racing, I don't see how S397 could organize all what iRacing does unless they suddenly hire 5 admins to work 24/7 or add lots of automation that's now missing.

 

Agree , "no private servers "would spell the end of leagues and the great communities they create..which of course means less servers to choose from

 

if there was an effort to make league admin lives easier that would be really amazing already

 

Basically my time-trial idea wouldn't exclude junior or unexperienced players, since the time limit to complete the full distance doesn't need to be too rigid. The focus more is that they are safe, which comes largely from practice. In any case, I think 'paid drives' were common in F1 until the late eighties, and if you see the final standings of historic races they differed a lot a more than they do now with half the grid being lapped several times. The key is nobody should be excluded for being slow. The only ones who should be excluded are those who drive recklessly and lack patience to wait for the correct time to make a safe pass. A two hour time trial with full damage builds patience and self-control, exactly what those who cause crashes lack. It would help them to improve, especially those who have come from AC and similar simcades who are only used to short five lap sprint races, however have an interest in developing their skill in a more professional and realistic environment. It would not only help them, but also build the racing simulation community.

 

I agree with you 100%, what iRacing has achieved has taken them a decade. But organised time-trials, as I proposed, shouldn't require much setting up and maintenance, and they would act as a base to build upon for future developments in rFactor's online racing.

 

If your online servers are moderated properly then there normally isn't an issue.
At http://xfactorracing.com/ we have our servers open to the public so you can practice
at any time. On race nights the server remains open, but we have a requirement
of all racers being on TeamSpeak. It ensures we can chat to any new drivers about
their driving experience & can help them through the various complexities of the game
to get them up to a decent standard in as short a time as possible. If driving standards
are not adhered to, the driver gets kicked out pretty quickly & repetitive bad behaviour
earns a server ban.
Non-regulated servers, such as quick-race servers, are probably the most problematic.
I suppose that's the risk you take if you go there. That's why I prefer organised, clan-based,
racing. Licence based alternatives rarely work well, and that's why I avoid iRacing & similar...

 

In the beginning there were less private servers and a lot more action because people could join any public server with ISI content. There was more racing. As private servers increased, online became a bore. It's dead and it sucks. A majority of people don't want to wait for 1 race on a specific date and if you get caught in a wreck you're race is over and you have to wait another week. Not all of us want to monitor a league forum and post updates, etc. It's a racing sim, we want to race. I spend more time now off line with the AI and I have the strength over 100%. You don't need leagues or communities or private servers to be fast in sim-racing or to have fun. Just time behind the wheel while racing others.

This gets frustrating. Every so often this topic comes up and it's the same thing about leagues and private servers and requirements and nothing changes. Just more repeating of what's already established and Online racing keeps drudging along at a snail's paces

 

Honestly if you think it's simple as that open a public server with short races and wait people join
If people are paying $50+ per month for a server they have the right to do what they want with it. I know some people that spend more than they'd do in iRacing just to have races in rF2/AMS, be thankfull they still exist

 

And then there are those who enjoy leagues and the good leagues run a few servers and have multiple race nights each week with mates. Like xfactor we run open servers all week and it goes private practise an hour before race time , many times drivers who have been in practice prior will then join up to teamspeak be given passwords and join the fun , it works . Public servers are available but numbers simply don't attract people ... yet..

 

Just a reminder that one solution does not fit all people.

Many people prefer pickup racing during the few hours they have. Many people want the structure of leagues. And a few people would just like to have more people online at a particular time in their time zone <*cough midweek-west-coast-usa-evenings cough*>. Many people enjoy hotlapping, many people prefer racing, some people want to drift, some people want to hang out, and some people just want to drive (this is the wrong game for them, LOL).

Pickup racing requires many people online with public servers. League racing only needs people to be online for their race with the server optionally private. With the current low online numbers, public league servers can easily be managed as a recruitment tool, but when numbers increase (either in the league or the public online), then private servers are going to be more beneficial to the league.

As I write this, there are 435 servers up (*) and only 31 are populated (7.1%), some probably populated only with AI. 227 of those servers are public (52%) with 14 populated. Basically there's no shortage of places for people to drive online if they are so inclined, but if you want a quick race, your choice is limited. If you're wanting specific cars and specific tracks, then your choices are limited. [And if you want specific cars, specific tracks, and populated servers, then it's time to re-think your priorities.]

(*) 10 of the servers are not using the current version of rF2.

 

That's a really interesting suggestion if applied to the start of each licence category,really good idea.

The lotus 49 just like the 79 which I mainly participated in are basically leagues due to being very poorly populated,only racing maybe 2x a week,they were hard cars to drive especially the 49,you enter any series in iracing where you get decent numbers and baring topsplit,it was a shit show,because anyone with that licence could join and race without even practicing.

Imsa,gt3,Formual Renault,skippy,Porsche cup and the Porsche series,mx5,mclaren f1 and basically all of the oval series were chronic offenders of poor driving standards,baring too split so the majority of the field didn't care or have a clue how to race.

This month alone there's been 3 threads on iracing similar to this one but about how to clean up the driving standards,all 12+ pages long with not one comment from staff.

The typical answer from fanboys,join a league,which completely makes the claim of ir and sr produce clean good racing,redundant,it's a very expensive sim to just run leagues once a week,and which is the reason for this thread,I hope that s397 don't just allow for an easy time because it negatively effect the driving standards and spread the already thin playerbase between leagues and pick up servers.

That's what my two years gave as an experience of on iracing,and hence one of the main reasons why I'm here and not resubbing there

Keep the thoughts coming,this is a tricky subject and a very hard balancing at for the devs to get right,I guess they need to know what type of reputation they want for their online official series