I keep on reading sometimes people describing some of the RF2 cars feeling like paper... Was just enjoying myself some RF2 when I started to get silly and all, driving and drifting around the cars and then it hits me, when I jump on Honda S2000 I found on FB page of ASM some time ago. Those tires really accentuate the weight transfer and sliding that occurs with it, and also the springiness of the tires wich also feel very off in many of the RF2 GT cars, or overall cars honestly... The GT3 cars slides are so soft feeling in the FFB and sound that it feels a bit like sliding on ice, but with actually more grip then it should and much more predictable. That definetly contributes for the feelings of cars being weightless as otherwise I actually feel the inertia/weight physics to be done rather well and not being what people actually think is somehow wrong
Hey Lazza . Came back to stir some discussions again, since at the time the Devs actually came up with the new tires for the M4
I agree and disagree. IRL when you're in a proper power slide, the car in effect does kind of feel weightless, like you're gliding. That's part of the reason why it feels awesome. If you have the rear tyres really spun up, it feels like the rear is gliding on a silky smooth cloud. It really does feel very smooth and kind of weightless, literally like gliding. However, I do question the small period between tyre sliding and tyre gripping up. I'm not saying it should always happen every single time you finish a slide or every time you come out of understeer, but there never seems to be a period of "gripping up, losing grip, gripping up", with the tyre shuddering/car vibrating. Sometimes you come out of a slide, and the slide is perfectly smooth like butter, but then as you straigten up the rear tyres are almost bunny hopping a bit or bucking as they grip/re-grip. Similar story to underesteer, yes it is very smooth, but sometimes when grip comes back there is a kind of skipping across the track surface as the tire grips re grips. Possibly related IDK, but I think of all the times I've done a hard launch IRL, or ripped a burnout, and I can tell you axle hop is a thing that has happened to me dozens and dozens of times. So why does axle hop never happen in rF2? Or maybe it does and I just don't notice. Why does the front end never do a kind of shudder at the end of an understeer? It does feel all a bit too smooth.
I am depressed about simracing, up to the point that I am startign to think to renew my iRacing sub. Just as it seemed rF2 started to step forward firmly, boom MSG, boom NASCAR, boom pica toxicity, boom malnutrition, boom organism got sick and digestion stalled, I mean development stalled. Ended with a few great notes though, so that is positive. We have some hope about some good stuff this month as I recall being said. But it feels more secure just not to think about it. It happens if it happens. I try not to read as much what people say anymore. Usually they just copy flawed thoughts of other people who are equally clueless and doesn't really know themselves what they are trying to say, and what words mean. It is because simracing influencers are mostly carrying zero baggage of knowledge, and it is often a coincidence if they get one bit right. I think when many regular simracers say words like: Weight, Weight Transfer, Force Feedback (which should have acronym FF not FFB), Physics, Slip Angle and similar usual suspect words... They hear in their heads something like this: "upouovuovuvuvououvouvovpovopvuvuvvovovoooovovovo", thats how much sense it makes. Also as for this thread, I am not quite sure what was meant too. But I guess it is about cars not getting tire updates, as like in newest Tattuus, Fpro and BMW DTM car. I also expect that mentioned S2000 from some facebook group, is most likely using some ISI cars physics, with most probably tweaked base friction values of tires.
If your tires are arcade/unrealistic everything will also feel unrealistic. You could have the best aero in the world in RF2, if the tires grip dynamics are too permissive, you can catch slides, rotate the car like a moron, throw it around... Then the car will not feel snappy enough, not affected enough by weight transfer, suspension travel, bumps and what not...
If it was cheaper I would try that again. I just found on discord that even the new tire model is still suffering from leveled out slip angles... I find it outrageous... The person showed Motec data and grip drop offs. I don't understand what S397 is doing, but I am not really buying anything anymore if this is how they will want their sims to be, arcade tire behavior.... Just no, sorry, this isn't need for speed. Yeah I agree. I've learned a lot but at the time some of those things were just vague ideas and still aren't really deep level understanding for me, but quite enough to use my logical thinking and see what could be wrong or not, to at least have a discussion on that. I'm not sure, but some modders actually know how to make cars that have at least propper sliding friction and slip angles grip drop off. Better a limited car on realistic data with that right then S397 car data with unrealistic/arcade tires.
Yeah, it also depends on the suspension stiffness and all. The S2000 is a car that has bug suspension travel the way it comss out of the box and that also makes it different. I sometimes see slides that feel very rough but some other times on different cars they definetly feel smoother, so I shouldn't have based it only on that, but a thing is for sure, too many cars feel too safe to save slides. I think I've drove some cars that show that hop you mention and that feels very awesome!
The F1 1996 mod hops, a lot, when it starts to recover from understeer. It actually is kind of violent on the steering. It feels great, the car is vibrating, the tires are deforming. Not sure how realistic it is, because everyone also complains that the defect in this mod is the hopping. It makes putting on power much more difficult because it hops!
I drive the older content still, but the times I actually think of my driving more I know I wouldn't ever get way with what i get way on those cars. I hope it's coming with the December update...
Well thats interesting. I think it is believable feedback. But is it truly certain, also by how much, is it significant ? Neither do I. Probably nothing for rF2 lately. But we will see.
My thoughts exactly. Even my "before favorite car", the porsche cup car, feels slightly off after mostly driving the M4, tough not nearly as much as the GT3's and GTE's do. Tried the GT3 porsche just recently, and omg how arcady it felt. It didn't feel "rF2 in my mind" at all, if you know what i mean. Basically the M4 is only car from s397 i enjoy driving now.
I can see how it would be annoying, IRL it is annoying, and in ACC I found it a bit annoying and exaggerated... but I think it made the cars feels a bit more "weighty". Two more real life examples, one when I was karting. I could attack a certain corner on entry unbelievably hard, and it would frustrate me to no end mid corner because instead of going into a smooth slide and somewhat maintaining momentum, the kart would go into a series of bone jarring lateral hops that scrubbed off loads of speed. If I removed the rear stabilizer bar, the kart would slide rather than hop, but the final result was a slower time. It was a strong incentive to get my corner entry speed right, rather than just send it. The other was when I took my low powered car on track with huge sticky tires and stock shockers. Though the tires didn't skip over the track, the car violently oscillated through corners, bouncing like a pogo stick. I've had this kind of behaviour happen in the sim but only in mods. I guess this kind of behaviour absolutely should not happen all the time because it's probably a sign that something is not set up right, and the tires are too grippy for the weight of the car or whatever.
Well, the grip graph or grip scattering points (not sure what to call it) showed that the front tires grip fall off at the front are not really peaky at all, while the rear tires were actually peaky, so something to think about. The guy actually started speculating it being about making the driving easier and it really maddened me... Tomorrow I'll actually check myself on motec though.
I just drove the Corvette C8.R GTE around Sebring back to back with the BMW M4 Class 1. Why is the C8.R better/worse than the M4? Both felt pretty good to me. Both similarly controllable over the limit once I was used to them. I wouldn't say easy to drive over the limit for either at race pace.
As some of the very quick drivers (who are also methodical enough to properly evaluate what's going on, instead of doing 2 laps driving conservatively then sliding and doing video laptime comparisons/rants) have said, it's just as hard to stay on the limit whether the slip angles are realistic or not. But obviously we'd all prefer it to be realistic - that's why we're here. @Nieubermesch please do your own tests, and do some targeted ones - scatter plots from entire laps will be skewed by aero influence, so unless you know exactly how tests are done it's very hard to judge. Plus there's the question of "how flat is flat?"
Have you turned TC and ABS off in Porsche (M4 doesn't have them, does it)? After playing a lot of ACC I can't say GT3 cars feel 'arcadish' in rF2. I think it's quite opposite, they're harder to drive in comparison to ACC. Furthermore, it will be strange if every car felt the same and GT3 car in comparison to BMW M4 is like apples to oranges comparison for obvious reasons: GT3 are like heavy bricks with less HP. They're less responsive and sensitive.
I'd just like to add that in my experience if grip is composed to result in sharper slip curves, more demanding driving, then the spread of laptimes expands. At the end of the day driving to the top is achievable to same talented, skillful people. But the rest of players (who actually puts an effort to be fast) can get to be either packed in 6s off pace window with more tricky tire. Or with less sharp grip composure it can shrink to something like 2seconds, with such grip composure it just becomes demanding closer to the performance limit. And net friction is what determines laptimes, you only need to maintain same amount of total friction, and best possible laptimes remains same, just statistical spread changes, due to altered difficulty and driving style and driving discipline required to reach peak friction most consistently during the lap or whole race. In my mind bigger than realism of simulation problem, is realism of gamers. Of course I'd assume I am 6feet, when I am not, and I used to think that I was 25% body fat, when I was much higher. So why should I assume that I am really 6s slower, and not 2s slower than top simracer. Anyway, IMO rF2 was for aliens racing in eSports for past few years, so why not go full realism mode. Unless it is actually annoying for top simracers to work harder. It should be more interesting practicing cars and tracks combos for a week straight, to achieve that level of perfection, it is hell of a grind. Should be more interesting spend last six days of a week to remove last one second from laptime, rather than last tenth. I do not believe it is same difficulty for them before and after.
Yeah, I've actually aknowledge that some laps are being made with propper driving, so it's no longer an issue like that only. It's about how forgiving they can be if you overstep the lines too, since driving is more then doing hotlaps and of course I want as realistic as possible. Well, the person who've done the tests looked like he knew how to work with Motec well, and probably it was't just the scatter plots, I am not sure. I'm waiting patiently for an update with most cars updated with better tire physics.
