[SOLVED] Weight Penalty for Aids

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Felipe Granado, Apr 14, 2020.

  1. Felipe Granado

    Felipe Granado Registered

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    Hello!
    I owner the Virtual Endurance Brazil league (https://virtualendurancebrazil.wordpress.com). Talking to driver friends, a question arose: How does the weight penalty work for those who use the simulator aids (Traction control, ABS ...).

    There are 2 questions and involves paid content (GT3 and Endurance):

    1. Can you inform the additional weight on top of each activated aid (Low, Med, High) for each aid?

    2. How does it work when the aid is activated and/or deactivated? For example: If I activate ABS to perform strong braking, I gain additional weight from the activated aid. When I exit the curve and I disable, is the additional weight removed immediately? Or does it stay until the end of that lap? Or does it stay until the end of the session?

    I really wanted to know this question because there are frequent and hot discussions about the use of aids in the championship and how it can represent an advantage for some competitors or level the grid for a better balance between experienced drivers and beginners.

    Thank you very much in advance!
     
  2. ADSTA

    ADSTA Registered

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    Don't take my reply as 100% correct but I can assure you it won't be 100% incorrect. I hope
    1. Because you specify paid content then I would imagine not because the hdv file that has the driving aids penalties (plus other data) is encrypted.
    2. I would imagine if you turn an aid on, no matter for how long or how many times, you will have that penalty applied once and for the duration of the race.
    Practice and qual, ummm, I would like to think if you turn of any aids before you hit esc you would have a clean slate each time you leave the garage..

    To try and minimise any advantage for the league racing, in the server settings I would only allow one driving aid and that would be auto-clutch because not everyone has a clutch pedal.
    Now that TC and ABS can be part of the vehicle itself and if weight penalties apply like the driving aids, you could try some type of fixed set-ups maybe.
     
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  3. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    If telemetry is available you could use tyre loads to measure changes in weight when activating aids. Failing that, you could measure acceleration (perhaps in a medium gear, to avoid wheelspin, and at a set speed range so gearing and aero changes don't skew results) to measure the difference in weight (mass). If I were doing that I'd validate against a test vehicle I can adjust the aid penalties for.

    To ADSTA's part 2, I think the opposite would apply: the mass will only be applied while the aid is activated. But that's also a guess :)

    I agree on the aids in general, especially in any cars that have some built in TC or ABS. Beginner or expert, there's little reason people need to have artificial TC or ABS if they put some practice in, they just need to spend some time and reign in their expectations - something everyone in a league should be doing anyway, or the racing will always be terrible.
     
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  4. ADSTA

    ADSTA Registered

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    You're a numbers man Lazza, do you think this scenario is possible with your "penalty applied only when activated" theory (you don't guess :p).
    If you turn on a certain aid every lap for one particular corner the benefit of the aid would be more than the loss from the penalty.
    I know without the numbers it's "how long is a piece of string" all over, but do you see how that could happen?
     
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  5. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Yeah, I understood that which is why I'm less confident than I might otherwise be. But I can't fight the feeling it seems unlikely the game will have you at the normal weight, then you activate an aid (perhaps accidentally) for half a second, the weight gets applied, and then for the next 3 hours that weight is still there. The results logs show aids etc per lap, and maybe that's a clue that it does get reset on each new lap?

    We're just feeling around in the dark here :D

    *I would also add, in the context of league admin, I've been involved in a league back to the rF1 days with a medium size field of drivers with varying abilities (a good 4-5 sec spread across the field on a typical 2 minute lap), and we did everything from Honda Civics to Indycars to 80s F1, and the only aid we had enabled was auto upshift - and that was for a quadriplegic who couldn't quite handle the upshifts but did the downshifts (for more control), and was basically driving one-handed (including throttle and brake). So generally I'm against running aids and I think that's the neatest solution. But it's not just a "hey, I don't need them, why should anyone else?" viewpoint - I've seen it in action and everyone can handle any car, with care.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
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  6. ADSTA

    ADSTA Registered

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    I've had a good look and I only see aids per race/session.
    Without aids: <ControlAndAids startLap="1" endLap="21">PlayerControl</ControlAndAids>
    With aids: <ControlAndAids startLap="1" endLap="21">PlayerControl,TC=1,ABS=1</ControlAndAids>

    It looks as though it doesn't log the in-car ABS or TC but in same car does log driving aids ABS / TC.
     
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  7. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    That's how the aids look in the logs if you don't change them (all laps on, or all laps off).

    I just did a run in devmode switching aids on and off, and this is what I ended up with:

    Code:
    <ControlAndAids startLap="1" endLap="1">PlayerControl,ABS=1</ControlAndAids>
    <ControlAndAids startLap="2" endLap="3">PlayerControl,ABS=2</ControlAndAids>
    <ControlAndAids startLap="4" endLap="4">PlayerControl</ControlAndAids>
    <ControlAndAids startLap="5" endLap="5">PlayerControl,ABS=1</ControlAndAids>
    
    And from the same test, having set the aid penalty to 0.10 (10% weight), the weight was being applied and taken off when I changed the aid level - even during a race session. So the weight didn't stick at all when I turned off ABS in this case. This would suggest there would be an advantage to turning ABS on for only the braking zones and then turning it off for the straights and corners (depending on stability), rather than leaving it on the whole time. Make that another vote for just disabling all artificial aids so this stuff doesn't matter.
     
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  8. ADSTA

    ADSTA Registered

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    Thanks mate. I was curious to see if it was a dev mode feature but single player records by lap as well.
    I was correct about the vehicles own ABS and TC not being logged.

    That about wraps it up for me here.
    Back to you @Felipe Granado ;)
     
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  9. Felipe Granado

    Felipe Granado Registered

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    Thank you very much for your return!

    This question was based more on the Endurance Pack than the GT3 (since they already have the aid as an electronic part of the car).

    Unfortunately, here in Brazil many drivers are "lazy" and with that they give up competing when they encounter a difficult situation. With that, we always discuss the use (or not) for the GTE and LMP2 cars of ABS in "low" so that the number of drivers in the events is reduced to almost zero. :(

    Unfortunately here we have this "culture" on the part of drivers. For the events to be successful, we need to release some aids of the simulator. It also has the fact that here the leagues do not have the power to hold drivers and compel them to play without assistance. Drivers simply look for another, "easier" league.

    Sorry for the outburst (I shouldn't do it here), but this question was enough to clarify the drivers' doubts.

    Thank you again!
     
  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    @Felipe Granado simulations aren't for everyone, and many gamers don't have the patience to do it properly. When you look at many games, the focus is on attaining new levels and getting more capabilities through it, or finding some object that gives you more abilities or defense or whatever. There's so much content that players don't realise their actual skills are improving as well, and it's certainly not their aim.

    In sim racing there's something to be gained via setup work, but the bulk is sheer driving - developing the right habits, reshaping the wrong ones, learning to feel where each car's limits are and understanding what's going on (and what just went on, when you make a mistake). There are no numbers, levels, or impressive status icons to share and gloat about - just laptimes.

    I think this is why sims will never be mainstream in gaming. So if you want to keep the masses happy, it's probably necessary to allow some aids. Hopefully knowing more now about how they're implemented will help you find the best compromise - and at least if everyone knows how to make the most of available aids, it's a level playing field.
     
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