Wait... What? GoodYear? A tire manufacturer?

[MotherDawg]

"we have worked extensively with the world renowned Goodyear brand to develop a much more detailed and realistic tyre for this new car" -- Paul Jeffrey, Announcement, News, July 1 2021

Does Goodyear know to go fast in rFactor 2, one must drop the tire pressures to something ridiculous like 15psi and remove most of the camber?

Ya sure...

 

[davehenrie]

"we have worked extensively with the world renowned Goodyear brand to develop a much more detailed and realistic tyre for this new car" -- Paul Jeffrey, Announcement, News, July 1 2021

Does Goodyear know to go fast in rFactor 2, one must drop the tire pressures to something ridiculous like 15psi and remove most of the camber?

Ya sure...

That statement refers to changes made to the Formula Pro tires. They do plan on migrating that data to other cars though.
Any tire will be faster with low pressures. Just ask Redbull. But low pressures should also bring a lifespan penalty(Just ask Redbull) which is not present in rF2. (possibly because track temps are not considered in the tire physics at this time.)

 

[mantasisg]

Quality thread opening. Surely a lot of thoughts in it.

Track temps not being dynamic are more an issue for compounds. Although perhaps has an impact on pressures as well.

S397 and most mod makers now has been limiting lowest tire pressures to what would be logical amount IRL. Yes indeed the single most important factor of how low pressures could go should be tire durability. Other things we have speculated in the past were stuff like rolling resistance and handling.

One condition where there probably really should be some particular optimum pressure, which wouldn't be just as low as tire can structurally bear, would be in the wet. If rain physics were advanced in rF2. There is direct relation between aquaplaning speed and tire pressures (https://www.facebook.com/iskystheli...-pilotssmartpilotsliketolear/887631471707632/), higher pressures results in higher aquaplaning speeds. Other factor is that too low pressures can trap water in the middle of contact patch, dramatically decreasing aquaplaning speed and contact area in general.

 

[AMillward]

Given that if you try to drive that Formula Pro car like you would any other car in rf2 you lose time/tyre life/crash, I’d say it’s pretty good.

 

[Robin Pansar]

"we have worked extensively with the world renowned Goodyear brand to develop a much more detailed and realistic tyre for this new car" -- Paul Jeffrey, Announcement, News, July 1 2021

Does Goodyear know to go fast in rFactor 2, one must drop the tire pressures to something ridiculous like 15psi and remove most of the camber?

Ya sure...

Instead of just making a thread complaining about an issue that everyone already knows about and constantly being negative, contribute something substantial to why this is the case. No one is going to take you seriously if you act like a toddler.
Taking the Formula Pro car as an example, telemetry is open so you can test a lot of scenarios. Looking at the camber, you can study the contact patch, lat/long forces, etc.

From my own findings on the car, increasing camber doesn't have enough change in peak lateral force, meaning that you mostly just take away straight line performance. There's also something off with the contact patch as the car alters its handling and feel a lot once you increase camber. Same feel for many other cars with more up to date tyre models. The older models seemed to have the reverse issue where you could pile on a lot of camber without much loss in longitudinal grip (or going beyond the peak in lateral grip).

 

[Lazza]

In the hopes of helping to make this a constructive thread...

From my own findings on the car, increasing camber doesn't have enough change in peak lateral force, meaning that you mostly just take away straight line performance.

Does this mean you have measured a lateral force increase with non-zero instantaneous camber? How does it compare to what you'd expect? Do you have good references or experience of typical camber gains?

(Note: all serious questions. I'd love to know more about this. To be fair I haven't gone on a Google quest yet, so...)

 

[MotherDawg]

Sorry if I offend anyone, I'm french so I translate as I go.

davehenrie
It seems you don't know.

Presently, in rFactor 2, since an update in 2017, the staple of rFactor 2, it's Tire Model, is broken.

Before, when you ran too low tire pressures, the tires would heat up and wear quite fast. When next to zero camber was used, the tire would also heat up, wear prematurely and most of all, the car would handle poorly.

Now a days, 15psi, -0.1 camber gives a huge gain in grip. Two seconds a lap at Spa. and you can go 100 minutes with the same set of soft. It does not affect the life of the tire much anymore.

Test it. Take a hundred laps and build yourself a nice setup. Write down your time. Now, destroy your setup. Drop to the minimum pressure. Remove all cambers and go out again. Then come and tell me you were slower.

There is no such thing in setting up nice Inner, middle and outer temperatures in rFactor 2 anymore. Take the default setup, remove pressures and cambers and voila... faster times than any one who bothers building up a nice setup so to get the right temperature like in real life.

And patching the destroyed tire model by limiting the lowest usable pressures or cambers does not fix the tire model and is moving further away from real life.

So that is why I am stunned that Goodyear wanted to work with S397 and their broken tire model... unless S397 are not listening and don't know about what they did to rFactor 2's tire model.

But I heard rumors... and I know they are rumors... but they say that S397 does not have the expertise to fix what they broke in 2017. They know how to code eye candy, I'll give them that. rFactor 2 has never been so pretty... it's fun but if you race online and you want to fight at the front... drop those pressures and remove that camber or else... you're in the back.

Again, sorry if I offend anyone, I'm a frenchy. My translation might be off...

 

[davehenrie]

It is well known about the low pressures and camber. No surprise there, they do have many physic issues that have not been resolved. You may be correct they lacked the knowledge to correct things. I suspect ISI did not excactly code like other developers and that has contributed to the sluggish pace of advancement. But the tires are changing, led by the Fp. Much more needs to be done. We are all aware of that.

 

[Filip]

The Tires They Are A-Changin'

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the tires they are a-changin'

 

[Robin Pansar]

In the hopes of helping to make this a constructive thread...



Does this mean you have measured a lateral force increase with non-zero instantaneous camber? How does it compare to what you'd expect? Do you have good references or experience of typical camber gains?

(Note: all serious questions. I'd love to know more about this. To be fair I haven't gone on a Google quest yet, so...)

So far I've just done some basic stuff and not continued to isolate things more since I can already feel and see the difference in the data.
I usually just look at a scatter in MoTeC where the lateral force of a tyre is plotted against the slip angle of the same tyre. Then simply just overlay two laps with different camber and look at the difference. You can also calculate the lateral coefficient of friction of the tyre to see a more clear difference. Furthermore, you can isolate it more by doing a test on a skidpad with constant turning at a static velocity, but I haven't felt the need to do it.

My references are not many since tyre data is scarce to find, but let's take an example for a FR 3.5 car.
This is from their 2012 release:

Two graphs with 0 deg and -4 deg camber. If we do a rough calculation of the coefficient of friction at 6 deg slip angle at 4.5 kN vertical load on both we get these:
0 deg camber - 1.55 CoF
-4 deg camber - 1.75 CoF

Pretty huge difference, no? An increase in lateral grip by ~13%, which is huge enough to ignore.
So with that example, I would expect larger differences in lateral and longitudinal grip with camber changes. Obviously, the devs might have different data with a lot less difference to prove otherwise, but it's something I will believe when I see it. When having seen some examples of other setups from IRL cars/classes that exist in the game, it is evident that something is wrong when ex. GT3 setups can run up to + -4 deg camber whilst in-game you are comfortable by just setting it to the minimum allowed.