Updated Third-Party Palatov D4 1.38 Now Available

Hopefully I can help clear some things up. I am quite familiar with the real-life Palatov D4; I build them and I'm a partner in the business. I have extensive seat time in the actual car, but admittedly, limited sim time.

We actually use the sim for testing and data gathering purposes. It is to our own advantage that it is as realistic as possible. Is the sim an absolutely perfect representation of the actual car, maybe not, but it is so damn close that is quite impressive. The videos that TJones posted earlier in the thread were from 5 years ago when the car was basically brand new and not fully sorted. Admittedly, looking back on it now, the car was barely drivable. Since then much has changed, from aero, to suspension geometry, even the chassis design. Basically the outward appearance is the same but much of what is underneath the body is different. This most recent, patent-pending, suspension geometry has radically changed the handling and drivability of the car. The car now soaks up curbs and power-sliding is surprisingly easy to manage.

To get a better idea of the cars handling characteristics here are a couple of videos of the car with the most recent suspension (4th generation I believe):
Maryhill Hillclimb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1LGw5vL2OY
Laguna Seca: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIZwp9uEp9w (same driver as the Laguna video posted earlier)

Here is a video of a customer in Taiwan using the previous generation suspension geometry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOk-BcTlVuE
 
LewisFab said:
Hopefully I can help clear some things up. I am quite familiar with the real-life Palatov D4; I build them and I'm a partner in the business. I have extensive seat time in the actual car, but admittedly, limited sim time.

We actually use the sim for testing and data gathering purposes. It is to our own advantage that it is as realistic as possible. Is the sim an absolutely perfect representation of the actual car, maybe not, but it is so damn close that is quite impressive. The videos that TJones posted earlier in the thread were from 5 years ago when the car was basically brand new and not fully sorted. Admittedly, looking back on it now, the car was barely drivable. Since then much has changed, from aero, to suspension geometry, even the chassis design. Basically the outward appearance is the same but much of what is underneath the body is different. This most recent, patent-pending, suspension geometry has radically changed the handling and drivability of the car. The car now soaks up curbs and power-sliding is surprisingly easy to manage.

To get a better idea of the cars handling characteristics here are a couple of videos of the car with the most recent suspension (4th generation I believe):
Maryhill Hillclimb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1LGw5vL2OY
Laguna Seca: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIZwp9uEp9w (same driver as the Laguna video posted earlier)

Here is a video of a customer in Taiwan using the previous generation suspension geometry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOk-BcTlVuE
Click to expand...

Thank you for your post - I am not sure it clears things up but is interesting to know the additional information. The first two video's I had seen, and the content mainly looks very much like the Palatov we have in the sim. The only reading we can do about the handling characteristics 'over the limit' though (the most important area IMO) are using small glimpses such as 1.47 into the Laguna video. From everything I know and have experienced in real life, plus the small amount we can see in these kind of video's, I am surprised that the car would be as difficult to spin and forgiving as it is in the sim. Having said that it does remind me very much of a kart in that way, so it is not that this behaviour is physically impossible in real life, maybe the unique suspension geometry gives it those characteristics. So I am not saying it is definitely wrong, but I would be surprised if it isn't overly forgiving.

I guess what we could use is a video of someone throwing it around in a safe environment like an aerodrome or similar ;)

In time I am sure we will see more revealing footage but for now I am happy to enjoy what we have in sim, it is great fun. When I am in the market for a trackday car I will make the comparison myself and make a video of it, surprised faced or otherwise :cool:.
 
Slow Motion said:
May I say without offending anybody, 2 things?
1. What is really funny is that no one person that wrote here giving judgments about, has never driven the real-world Palatov D4 cars (Trackday or Hillclimb that feel like 2 different cars of course)
2. I'm very happy, sincerely, that this little prototype, also at its second public version, inspires so many comments!

Thank you.
Click to expand...

I know nothing of that only what I determine from all models at a particular track and was not supposed to be a swipe at it just a general comment about tight cars on rough tracks. ;)

As to my original question...... should it be quicker then a ZR-1 at Longford I just don't feel it balances out speed vs accel and braking at a track with high 100% throttle and long straights.

Well sprung suspension on some models does not seem to get enough eferential effect on rough surfaces for mine.

Longford cars like Palatov, Megane, Camaro, Dallara do not seem effected by it at all, like it is freshly tarred race course.

Cars with softer suspension and rebound " chatter" in 3 of 4 braking areas there, you can feel the wheels almost leave the deck, one wheel lockups etc.
 
wow, Lewis Fabrication, one of the main sponsors of the Palatov Motorsport: I'm very pleased to read your post. Thank you

And this thread is going to be much more interesting for the conversations that I'm reading. So I'd like to give sone more info about the development...

As I said we used many data of the real car like gps data and tech data about the performances of the D4 at ORP (for this reason we needed to have the track also into rF2). I mean we recevid tens and tens of laps at ORP and we managed those data for having info about max speed, corner speed, corner G, etc... Many laps to "extract" average data, okay?
But I also asked for max speed depending of gear ratio at known tracks where the D4 was tested collecting data at those times by Mr. Palatov (ORP, Laguna Seca and Sears Point) and also data about last of the 2 different compounds, aero, CX... because "normal" data like weights, measures, general ratios, were not enough for comparing real to sim car and for a serious development.
So I was able t tune the max speed at certain known conditions, ISI had the data that we were able to had by the manufacturers for the TGM, I later worked on that spreadsheet for generating the TGM to tune the last and grip, wear and degradation to match the real world compounds. For this reason I toke the decision to add a "sim set of tires" for multiplayer purposes... otherwise the real tires last too much for having interesting and tactical multiplayer races.
But I spent also a lot of time to tune the AIs for speed and grip... in all different weather and track conditions. Maybe now, due to the continuous updates that ISI is making to the AIs, the values humans/AIs could be not like few weeks or months ago, but at the time I worked on it there was a perfect balancing.
And I also compared and tuned the mod taking care of the lap time at ORP and Sears Point depending of the skills of the drivers and the range Mr. Palatov provided: occasional driver, trackday driver, amateur driver, expert driver, professional driver in case these persons were occasional drivers of the D4 or usual drivers of the D4.
All that was very exciting for me, because it was my dream: to have the chance to develop a mod having all data and feelings and reports by the manufacturer of the real car. As you have read I NEVER wrote a personal comparison between the real car and the mod. I commented only to Mr. Palatov my personal feeling in driving the mod to know how the real car behaves and I commented to ISI data and feelings to have more info and help in tens and tens of little tunings.
I was also invited by Mr. Palatov to drive his real cars to understand many more things, but Portland is a little bit far from my country.
My wish? To have the chance a day to develop another mod in the same way (or better, why not?) with the full support and direct involvement of the manufacturer!
 
DurgeDriven said:
I know nothing of that only what I determine from all models at a particular track and was not supposed to be a swipe at it just a general comment about tight cars on rough tracks. ;)

As to my original question...... should it be quicker then a ZR-1 at Longford I just don't feel it balances out speed vs accel and braking at a track with high 100% throttle and long straights.

Well sprung suspension on some models does not seem to get enough eferential effect on rough surfaces for mine.

Longford cars like Palatov, Megane, Camaro, Dallara do not seem effected by it at all, like it is freshly tarred race course.

Cars with softer suspension and rebound " chatter" in 3 of 4 braking areas there, you can feel the wheels almost leave the deck, one wheel lockups etc.
Click to expand...

they don't rebound and chatter because the rebound and bump on the shocks are valved differently. A stiffer/tighter suspension doesn't always mean less grip. The DW12 can track the bumpy surface better than a Historic, yet the Historic has a very soft suspension. It is possible to get better traction on softer suspension cars though, ie. Brabham BT20. I don't get any chatter while hard braking and it is possible to outbrake the AI on 100%. Some tweaks to the setup and it is possible. Overall, the corners are smooth. Only the straights are a bit bumpy.
 
Hi,
i'am a bit late here, sorry i have a lot of work to do these days.
First of all, thank's to LewisFab and Slow Motion for their posting, very interesting.
There's noticable improvement in car's drivability between older videos and the "Laguna Seca" video LewisFab posted.
It's also closer to the rF2-version here IMO.

I made a video early this week, to visualize the "problems" i have with driving physics of this car.
Track condition was green, setup was default except tyres where slick and camber of -1.0 instead 0 at front axle.
Drvingstyle was very rough, more like driving a Kart.
Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2SROmPFTMM

Yesterday then, after watching the "Laguna Seca" video LewisFab posted, i decided to try a different approach.
My thinking was, with a more respectful driving and some setup changes, it should be possible to get more realistic looking result, so more that what we saw in the latter "Laguna" video from LewisFab.

This is the result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C5o56GIZX8

Track preset was "light_rubber".
In the setup i made the following changes to default:
- Diff-pump up to 50% (gave me less influence of load changes)
- Diff-coast 20% (more stable at turn in)
- Preload: 1 (better rotation at apex)
- Spring Rate: 140 N/mm all around
- Ride-height down to 4.5/4.8 cm (together with stiffer springs this should suit to a track with a lot of fast corners)
- Caster to 4 deg
- Camber front to -1 deg.
- Slicks all around
- Brake bias 67:33

All this changes, i did with the "it should drive more like what we saw in the video" in mind.
The changes, more "Spring Rate", and lower Ride-height was a bit of an eye-opener to me, this made the car remarkable more tricky/nervous.
Driving style then, is a lot cleaner, more careful, so more like i would drive in a real car.

I think the result it looks more like what we could see in the video from Lewis.
As you could see, tyre-temps where very low for a slick-tyre. Normaly such a tyre should'nt have much grip outside his temperature window, which is usually 70°-90°C.
Overall i think, there's still room for improvement in the tyre-physics. :)
 
The thing that bothers me in game at D4 is high steering sensitivity, it's like you've said, like driving a kart, very reactive on the small wheel input. It doesn't have natural feel to me, although I never drove one so I can't say much.

But looking at Laguna Seca video and comparing to a game, or your video, there's a noticeable difference in angle of the wheel position. In RL he does need to turn the wheel much more to get into the corner, whereas in-game it's only small angle.

I've took the screenshot of his and yours video at same corner, with max wheel turn. His hands are almost at 90 degrees, in game is like 35-40:

8l7c8l3.jpg


HnBP6ae.jpg
 
Yes, this was also my first thinking, but i think it's difficult here to estimate how much understeer occurs.
I used the new rF2 steering system wich is default in the tuning menu.
The difference is, with the new system you simply change the bumpstopps of your steering rack.
The old system however change the ratio, so more or less direct steering. You can select it in the tuning menu of the car.
The new system is a lot more realistc though!
 
My early postings about this car was abut the very sensitive steering ratio yea almost kart like. Where as in the videos the driver is using much more lock. His driving mannerisms show the car seems heavier and less sensitive than rf2 version.
 
With the "steering wheel range" set to 720 instead of the default 540, I find it's absolutely awesome. Realistic or not, I don't know, but the radius isn't as tight, and still feels super agile.
 
Good morning,

with my statement "The new system is a lot more realistc though!" i meant the realization is more realistic. :)
I mean, on a real racecar you can't change the steering ratio in small steps in the box. It's possible F1 or GP2 teams mount a more direct steering for tight tracks like Monaco, before they travel to racetrack. However limit the max deflection (new rF2 system) shouldn't be very problematic.

I didn't made any comarsion tests between the two steering systems, with this version of the Palatov, so i can't say anything about it.

If i'm not wrong, Tim once said, with the new system, steering forces are received from the steering rack, while at the old system from the suspension movement.
 
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As someone who helped test the D4 for SlowMotion, I can reiterate that the car is awesome and awesomely simulated. However, the steering is tight and people should experiment with the two options and ratios if it feels too kart-like right out of the box. I also find the ISI karts too tight and they also benefit from upping the steering ratio just a bit (to about 200 or 210). It takes a very high quality wheel to properly handle the default settings on the D4 or the karts.
 
You can recreate steering geometry as closely to real life car as you want. If you want, with the current tech you could actually replicate bushing flex, if you have enough real world data.
If you see any differences in steering wheel lock for a given corner, there are two main reasons:
- tyre characteristics are different than the real one,
- steering geomery might be more or less off.
In my opinion, typically it will be tyres, then, sometimes, might be (also) steering geometry, if not correctly replicated.

EDIT:
Of course, I don't take car setup into account as I assume, it is already tuned exactly like the real car and tests are done on the same track, with similar grip levels.
 
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Thanks for this really tiny powerful fun car :)

One remark : on the Steam Workshop where this car is showed as subscribe only v1.0 seems to appear, saying "Last updated on October 18, 2015". In any case the 1.38 is well installed through the Worshop on my rF2 installation so the car files have been updated to 1.38 in the workshop, so I guess it's just a missed remark update (or change notes) on Steam?

Sorry to ask but it's confusing...
 
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