Updated Third-Party Palatov D4 1.38 Now Available

[aguy0523]

This is the most realistic car that rF2 has and the level of detail to physics is unparalleled in the sim genre. I simultaneously love the realism and despise myself for not being able to drive this car appropriately. I have such a hard time trying to complete a decent lap. Bear in mind I am able to turn a 2:03 at Bathurst with the GTR, so it's very frustrating going slow in the D4. Congrats to anyone who can go fast in this car.

 

[djbob]

With all due respect (and it is a lot of respect - the Palatov is my favourite sim car) - Mr Palatov and employees of the company may not want to truly replicate deficiencies in the handling (if they exist) - so the fact they have had a big role in the development doesn't necessarily make it the most realistic representation. I try to appreciate the amount of data going into the process, but when Mr Palatov says he is sad then I guess you have to start fudging things to make him happy. I happen to agree with TJones, it is a lot of fun but the car is so forgiving I find it hard to imagine the real car behaves as closely to the sim car as you suggest. I haven't driven it, only watched videos so my opinion may be wrong, I am just putting forward a scenario which could have led to the car handling being less realistic.

Anyway, thank you for the work which has raised the bar in simulation IMO and I look forward to your future work.

I don't like to answer any post regarding feelings and opinions after I have released the mod, because any comment can help in improving the work I made. But sincerely your comment is not of any help for a very easy reasons:
- the manufacturer, Mr. Dennis Palatov, that is also the designer of the car provided any data of the real-world car as well as of the 3 engines that can equip this car and approved any single thing that we have developed
- Mr. Palatov also drove the real-world car for years during the development of it and also drove the model during our development and in addition we built also the ORP track using real data provided by him and by the ORP owner to have a better comparison of the car in any little behavior
- Jonathan Frost, the factory driver of Palatov Motorsport that won in June the PPIHC Open Class driving a Palatov D2, drives usually the D4 and drove the model for comparison

I don't know how many models are developed in this way, with so many real data and tests, but this was made following this way. You have no idea of how many hundreds of hours I personally spent on any detail sharing data with ISI and Palatov for finding the best data to apply to the mod just for compensate any potential difference between a real-world car and how rFactor2 can manage same data, to have model that reacts exactly like the real car.
You have no idea of how many times every time we have to change something to the physic, Mr. Palatov answered me: "I'm sad Marco, but the car doesn't feel like the real one". For this version 1.38 I made 28 different versions of the ultrachassis and steering wheel... working on something that was closed to the perfection with version 1.0.
On my side this is a hobby, so, as I said, I don't like to comment posts and I hope you can understand my reasons. Thank you for the positive comment of the graphics side, that really needed a better quality. Not yet the top, but for a "spartan" car like the D4 and thanks to Chris "redapg" now we have a lot of new features (animated switches are just one of them) and improvements.

 

[msportdan]

Any claims that this car is just "unrealistic" is quite simply unfounded, I'd say.

lol the owner did!

 

[Tuttle]

lol the owner did!

No. You should read better what has been said.

 

[msportdan]

sorry mate

"I'm sad Marco, but the car doesn't feel like the real one".

where do I see that denied?

Personally I'm not a fan of the car anyway real or simulated.

 

[Racefreak1976]

lol the owner did!

As far as I know, the owner was actually quite amazed how realistic it turned out. A job well done, I'd say.

sorry mate

"I'm sad Marco, but the car doesn't feel like the real one".

Is completely taken out of it's context. Read again.

 

[MarcG]

With all due respect (and it is a lot of respect - the Palatov is my favourite sim car) - Mr Palatov and employees of the company may not want to truly replicate deficiencies in the handling (if they exist) - so the fact they have had a big role in the development doesn't necessarily make it the most realistic representation. I try to appreciate the amount of data going into the process, but when Mr Palatov says he is sad then I guess you have to start fudging things to make him happy. I happen to agree with TJones, it is a lot of fun but the car is so forgiving I find it hard to imagine the real car behaves as closely to the sim car as you suggest. I haven't driven it, only watched videos so my opinion may be wrong, I am just putting forward a scenario which could have led to the car handling being less realistic.

Anyway, thank you for the work which has raised the bar in simulation IMO and I look forward to your future work.

I think a lot of people could pick holes and attack you for your post but I'm not going too, I shall offer a piece of reasoning to do with the bit I bolded, it is this:

Fact is and yes this is a fact as we all know - Our home PCs do not have enough power to simulate a real car 1 for 1, I don't know but I'd be surprised if even the very best F1 simulators can do that yet. So when you have to peel back the very surface of a car to make it work in a standard everyday PC, with far less computing power, then you have to (*a finger of...) 'fudge' results in order to get the Sim car as close as possible to Reality.
A perfect example of this is when Slow Motion said: For this version 1.38 I made '28 different versions of the ultrachassis and steering wheel', if we all had amazingly powerful CPUs then he'd probably just have to make the 1 no doubt, but that will unlikely happen for a Racing Sim (see "Game") for many many years.

So with that in mind, remember that even though you feel it's not like the real thing, the most important aspect is that Mr Palatov does

* damn advert stuck in my head...and now yours too! One for the UK oldies amongst us!

 

[Tuttle]

sorry mate

"I'm sad Marco, but the car doesn't feel like the real one".

where do I see that denied?

Personally I'm not a fan of the car anyway real or simulated.

That's cherry picking, out of context. He was describing a development stage, before to reach the V1.0 status which was "almost perfect" and then he produced 28 tuning of ultrachassis to fine tune something it was already good, as that V1.0.

Try again.

For this version 1.38 I made 28 different versions of the ultrachassis and steering wheel... working on something that was closed to the perfection with version 1.0.

 

[msportdan]

car still has problem heating up tyres.

 

[Juergen-BY]

car still has problem heating up tyres.

drive faster...

 

[hexagramme]

car still has problem heating up tyres.

Nope. I've seen nothing out of the ordinary in that regard, at all. The long lasting tires act realistically and so do the much faster wearing racing slicks.

It all depends on how you drive them. Drive well and there's plenty of heat and grip available to you. Drive even better and you'll make those slicks serve you for many laps with maximum grip.

EDIT:

lol the owner did!

Please read stuff thoroughly before you make such outbursts.
A thread can derail so quickly when people don't stop to read stuff before they comment...

 

[msportdan]

Nope. I've seen nothing out of the ordinary in that regard, at all....

of course you wouldn't the start up screen says rfactor 2! The only way keep th temps in the purple is slide around every corner. Sorry theres something wrong with it.

This car just feels bland the ffb is flat, doesn't feel like a ISI quality car really.. No disrespect to the creator I appreciate the work, but it just doesn't fit the bill

great drifting car vo lol!

 

[msportdan]

Please read stuff thoroughly before you make such outbursts.
A thread can derail so quickly when people don't stop to read stuff before they comment...

Strange that isn't that what your doing over at the ac forums at rd slagging off the game for issues noone is having but you. Mate practice what you preach for gods sake !!

Stop making outbursts!!!

 

[TJones]

I don't like to answer any post regarding feelings and opinions after I have released the mod, because any comment can help in improving the work I made. But sincerely your comment is not of any help for a very easy reasons:
- the manufacturer, Mr. Dennis Palatov, that is also the designer of the car provided any data of the real-world car as well as of the 3 engines that can equip this car and approved any single thing that we have developed
- Mr. Palatov also drove the real-world car for years during the development of it and also drove the model during our development and in addition we built also the ORP track using real data provided by him and by the ORP owner to have a better comparison of the car in any little behavior
- Jonathan Frost, the factory driver of Palatov Motorsport that won in June the PPIHC Open Class driving a Palatov D2, drives usually the D4 and drove the model for comparison

I don't know how many models are developed in this way, with so many real data and tests, but this was made following this way. You have no idea of how many hundreds of hours I personally spent on any detail sharing data with ISI and Palatov for finding the best data to apply to the mod just for compensate any potential difference between a real-world car and how rFactor2 can manage same data, to have model that reacts exactly like the real car.
You have no idea of how many times every time we have to change something to the physic, Mr. Palatov answered me: "I'm sad Marco, but the car doesn't feel like the real one". For this version 1.38 I made 28 different versions of the ultrachassis and steering wheel... working on something that was closed to the perfection with version 1.0.
On my side this is a hobby, so, as I said, I don't like to comment posts and I hope you can understand my reasons. Thank you for the positive comment of the graphics side, that really needed a better quality. Not yet the top, but for a "spartan" car like the D4 and thanks to Chris "redapg" now we have a lot of new features (animated switches are just one of them) and improvements.

Hi, thank's for your reply.
I see you put a lot of time and effort in this car and i really dont want to discount your work. There are plenty of positive things to look at.
The amount of graphical details, the (slightly) uneven surface of the bodywork, working switches etc.

Unfortunately i cant give you better or more precise feedback as: IMO the whole limit is to wide, not enough dropoff of grip in dynamic friction.
Just look at some Vids at Youtube: This one: "Palatov at Laguna Seca" or this: "D4 at ORP".
In the videos you can see the driver make only tiny steering input, car slides a bit sometimes, but not much. In summary, he drive the car like a car.
When i drive the simulated, i drive the car like a Kart. Smash the car into the corner, sometimes slide throu the whole corner. It's fun of course to drive this way.
Anyway, probably not your fault, it's not the only car where i think "to easy to handle".

I can post a video of my driving in a few days (lack of time/bandwidth ATM) if necessary.

To all who disagree, may explain me, why this difference between driving shown in the vids, and those in the simulation?

Slow Motion, dont let yourself discourage by my or others maybe somewhat negative feedback.
I have the greatest respect from you and your work. You invested hundrets of hours in your hobby and share your great work with the community. Compared with this i do nothing. Be sure, i'm aware of that.

 

[alpha-bravo]

Strange that isn't that what your doing over at the ac forums at rd slagging off the game for issues noone is having but you. Mate practice what you preach for gods sake !!

Stop making outbursts!!!

So mate I think it's enough with your bull**** posts. Please stop it.
Unbelieveable how ignorant a human can be ^^

Make your posts in a constructive and kind manner or let it (what I personally would prefer)

thx

 

[djbob]

I think a lot of people could pick holes and attack you for your post but I'm not going too, I shall offer a piece of reasoning to do with the bit I bolded, it is this:

Fact is and yes this is a fact as we all know - Our home PCs do not have enough power to simulate a real car 1 for 1, I don't know but I'd be surprised if even the very best F1 simulators can do that yet. So when you have to peel back the very surface of a car to make it work in a standard everyday PC, with far less computing power, then you have to (*a finger of...) 'fudge' results in order to get the Sim car as close as possible to Reality.
A perfect example of this is when Slow Motion said: For this version 1.38 I made '28 different versions of the ultrachassis and steering wheel', if we all had amazingly powerful CPUs then he'd probably just have to make the 1 no doubt, but that will unlikely happen for a Racing Sim (see "Game") for many many years.

So with that in mind, remember that even though you feel it's not like the real thing, the most important aspect is that Mr Palatov does

* damn advert stuck in my head...and now yours too! One for the UK oldies amongst us!

I agree with what you say - I don't think that goes against what I said, or not what I meant to say. Of course things are being 'fudged' for all sims everywhere - no one can capture and translate ALL of the required data into a 1 for 1 recreation of real life physics, especially when it comes to tyres, so your fingers of fudge are stuck in here and there to plug the gaps. I shouldn't have said start fudging, I should have said adjust the fudge. The point is though that more data can make a better simulation because there is less fudge required - but doesn't always make a more realistic simulation as it depends where you are sticking the fudge fingers. If Mr Palotov wants to stick one in the 'less snappy oversteer' line of code because he doesn't want people killing themselves in the sim trying to catch slides then I guess he will. Does that automatically make it the most realistic? No.

 

[djbob]

Hi, thank's for your reply.
I see you put a lot of time and effort in this car and i really dont want to discount your work. There are plenty of positive things to look at.
The amount of graphical details, the (slightly) uneven surface of the bodywork, working switches etc.

Unfortunately i cant give you better or more precise feedback as: IMO the whole limit is to wide, not enough dropoff of grip in dynamic friction.
Just look at some Vids at Youtube: This one: "Palatov at Laguna Seca" or this: "D4 at ORP".
In the videos you can see the driver make only tiny steering input, car slides a bit sometimes, but not much. In summary, he drive the car like a car.
When i drive the simulated, i drive the car like a Kart. Smash the car into the corner, sometimes slide throu the whole corner. It's fun of course to drive this way.
Anyway, probably not your fault, it's not the only car where i think "to easy to handle".

I can post a video of my driving in a few days (lack of time/bandwidth ATM) if necessary.

To all who disagree, may explain me, why this difference between driving shown in the vids, and those in the simulation?

Slow Motion, dont let yourself discourage by my or others maybe somewhat negative feedback.
I have the greatest respect from you and your work. You invested hundrets of hours in your hobby and share your great work with the community. Compared with this i do nothing. Be sure, i'm aware of that.

Agree with all of the above, both 'negative' and positive.

At first I wondered if the short wheelbase gave the car the unusually kart like behaviour, but the videos suggest it should not be to the extent that it is. But if this is as good as it gets, it's a pretty damn good job all the same, congrats.

 

[88mphTim]

Strange that isn't that what your doing over at the ac forums at rd slagging off the game for issues noone is having but you. Mate practice what you preach for gods sake !!

Stop making outbursts!!!

So because someone else does something, you're OK? No.

The irony of someone saying to practice what they preach, then to stop making outburts, mid-way through his own outbursts, isn't lost on me.

 

[88mphTim]

Hi, thank's for your reply.
I see you put a lot of time and effort in this car and i really dont want to discount your work. There are plenty of positive things to look at.
The amount of graphical details, the (slightly) uneven surface of the bodywork, working switches etc.

Unfortunately i cant give you better or more precise feedback as: IMO the whole limit is to wide, not enough dropoff of grip in dynamic friction.
Just look at some Vids at Youtube: This one: "Palatov at Laguna Seca" or this: "D4 at ORP".
In the videos you can see the driver make only tiny steering input, car slides a bit sometimes, but not much. In summary, he drive the car like a car.
When i drive the simulated, i drive the car like a Kart. Smash the car into the corner, sometimes slide throu the whole corner. It's fun of course to drive this way.
Anyway, probably not your fault, it's not the only car where i think "to easy to handle".

I can post a video of my driving in a few days (lack of time/bandwidth ATM) if necessary.

To all who disagree, may explain me, why this difference between driving shown in the vids, and those in the simulation?

I can drive it like a car. Would you like a video?

A video isn't going to show you anyone of what a car is capable of doing, it's showing you what that driver did, that day, in whatever way you choose to interpret it.

I haven't yet seen an applied physics education curriculum that involves watching youtube to see what you can figure out about the laws of physics. It's disappointing to hear it so often used as a point of reference.

Take the Skip Barber as well... If you like, I can drive smooth as silk. I can also drive ragged as hell with buckets of steering input and too much yaw. Is there a difference in the car? No.

 

[djbob]

I can drive it like a car. Would you like a video?

A video isn't going to show you anyone of what a car is capable of doing, it's showing you what that driver did, that day, in whatever way you choose to interpret it.

I haven't yet seen an applied physics education curriculum that involves watching youtube to see what you can figure out about the laws of physics. It's disappointing to hear it so often used as a point of reference.

Take the Skip Barber as well... If you like, I can drive smooth as silk. I can also drive ragged as hell with buckets of steering input and too much yaw. Is there a difference in the car? No.

The point is how the car behaves at the limit - at the edge of the fastest way to drive the car. It's not about whether you can purposely drive it to mimic one style or another. There should be similarities between the sim and the real world video when driving around the limit and the suggestion that videos are invalid as a comparison is a lazy one.