Updated modding tools. Is it within the "To Do List"?

Discussion in 'Modding' started by SPASKIS, Dec 15, 2013.

  1. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,346
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    No, you're exporting to a format you can't import again. Your saved work is in Max format which you can obviously still open and work on.

    As said above, ISI provide some 3ds examples, and people can share 3ds files in order to illustrate tips or tutorials.

    People not having their content encrypted doesn't mean they want you to use it, or look at it. Maybe some of them would be happy to, but again - it makes much more sense to get their max files with all the objects built properly, rather than an import which just gives you the final product. Back to photoshop etc - you can load in an exported jpeg, but you lose all your layers, transparencies, paths, etc etc etc... if you want to see how someone put together a photoshop image, or you want to continue working on it, you load the PSD file, not a jpeg file... what's the point of importing a gmt where you lose the whole structure of the objects? You can't even see how they made it.

    If you just want to get an idea of poly count or how the mesh is shaped etc (if wireframe in devmode isn't enough), or you want to see what shaders etc are used, you can get to basically all of that using the method outlined in the OP (and 3dsimed, from what I've seen and what others have said, is a good tool for it).

    There's no reason not having an ISI importer makes you start from scratch.
     
  2. filippu

    filippu Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    139
    Well, as you said, there's a way to achieve what you want (import rF2 gmt), yet you still complain.
    You can have a closer look at a track by unpacking it in DevMod and launch the Viewer, you can import a track by doing what you described in the first post. What more do you want ? You know that modding takes time, if you're so lazy that you can't even let the computer run at night to import a track, don't blame ISI or everyone else for that.

    About encrypted content, there was that for rFactor. It didn't take long to get that decrypted...
     
  3. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    Another one that knows better than myself what I need and how should I invest my time. Don't even dare to insinuate that I am lazy. I go to bed past 4 AM many times modding tracks. Time that that could be much better invested with the appropriate modding tools.

    Excuse me but converting an rfactor2 object into rF1, previously tweaked to replace rf2 exclsuive shaders with old ones to be able to import it with 2010, save it to max, reopen it with 2012 put new shaders back again is not acceptable. I think you should inform yourself about what is value adding time and what not.

    All this is done with 3dsimed in 2 minutes. I just dont believe it takes that much to prepare a script to import directly rf2 objects to max.
    I will email dave noonan to ask him about it. I myself dont know how to do that since I have nothing to do with IT, I am mechanical engineer. The time being lost in the import by all yhe modders multiplies by one hundred the time I think it takes to prepare the script.

    We also would need a max library with objects, materials, animations, ... but I think that we could do that within the community.

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     
  4. filippu

    filippu Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    139
    Tools are appropriate. Amateurs and professionals are using them with 3DS 2010 with no problem... Your playing with multiple max versions while you already have 2010 is nonsensical.
     
  5. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    You save one step with that. The others are the same.

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     
  6. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,346
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    And ISI aren't interested in making it any easier. If you find someone willing to write a script to do it then great - but asking ISI for it is a waste of time.
     
  7. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,744
    Likes Received:
    40
    Just because a MAS file isn't encrypted doesn't mean the creator is cool with his work being ripped. If modded could easily encrypt their work then they would all be encrypted. Right now if you want a MAS encrypted, you have to email it to ISI and ask them to do it for you. So most modders don't bother. Personally this process needs to be automated via a web service where you submit the file and it spits out the new one.
     
  8. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    I agree. I thought that you could encrypt it easier. However if after so many hours of work someone wants to protect his content and does not bother to write a short email to ISI he is either a little bit stupid or does not really care much about it.

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     
  9. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,744
    Likes Received:
    40
    Not sure about of the rest of the world but in America most people don't take what isn't theirs simply because they don't surround it with security. If you are walking down the street and see a bike without a chain, should you take it? It's the same thing with IP.
     
  10. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    It is not exactly the same IMO. If i take your bike you have no bike. If you are not selling IP you should not bother that much about people using it. Not many people says whether people are free to use their tracks for other purposes. I was asked once if one of my tracks could be converted to another platform and for sure I granted permission. I believe in open source community and its benefits.

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     
  11. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,744
    Likes Received:
    40
    Even if you aren't selling IP, that doesn't mean it is up for grabs. Just because you are cool with sharing doesn't mean everyone is. I personally don't mind if someone uses my contributions. I don't even care if my name is in the credits. But that is my opinion. But I still respect other opinions.
     
  12. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    I understand your point but I am not sure ot it applies on this. A track is composed of many things that are being reused from third party. Textures, ads, google earth photos, object xpacks... when using them nobody cares about its intelectual property or mentioning those sources. If I share an xpack I am implicitly granting permission since its purpose is to use for other projects. I think IP needs to be registered or otherwise it is useless. How can you prove that a track is yours if you have not registered it. It is the same as patents. If you dont patent something brilliant it will be copycated by competition and they might even try to patent it.
    Sorry but if people dont make the effort to protect their stuff by encrypting, registering or explaining the conditions of their work in the official download site, dont answer mails askinfg for permissions, I just assume they dont care much about it. I am tired of granting special rights to people that really seem to do not care about it. I assume that they are glad to share their stuff like we both do.

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     
  13. freew67

    freew67 Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    5
    Never used an xpack before. I stopped helping Piddy before he brought those in. In rF1, Im sorry but encryption was a waste of time. I know of a handful of people that asked about it but didn't bother because it was to easy bypass. Register your track where? I can prove that my tracks are mine fairly easily.

    "I think IP needs to be registered or otherwise it is useless." Might want to do your homework on that one. http://bit.ly/1c7CqXJ
     
  14. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    You don't use xpacks but lots of users do. I dont know your story with Brendon so I dont know what you mean with that. It is surprising to me that the encrypting tool was so easy to decrypt and that nothing was done about it.
    I am willing to know if the same thing can be applied to rF2. I wouldnt be happy to read such a post coming from an ISI employee if I was from Marussia and was supposed to have all my data protected.
    I never cared about protecting my work but of I did I wouldn't leave things so easy to break. Some might be smart enough to break any security system but most users like me wouldn't be able to do it. IMO commercial programs do what needs to be done in the cases where you dont want your property stolen, they protect their work with security. Some hackers break it and publish their crackers. However they still make money. I always secure my house and car. I know some burglars will be able to open it but I l know that they are much more secure doing it. If I left them open voluntarily I couldn't say that I care about their security. It is my opinion.

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     
  15. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
  16. freew67

    freew67 Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    5
    I'm not an employee of ISI. I haven't seen any issues with rF2 gmt's yet. When Piddy was first getting started I would show him how I do stuff in max once in a while and he would work on adding it in BTB.

    You might not care about your stuff but I care about mine. My opinion is you ask for permission, it's not granted or you don't get a hold of them, then you don't have permission to use their stuff.

    My work is protected the second I make it no matter how much security I have on it. Just because something is easy to take doesn't make it ok to take it.

    When is my work protected?
    Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

    Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
    No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration.”
     
  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,346
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    Spaskis, I think you're looking at this from the wrong side. It's not the creator's responsibility to let people know not to use their work; if you modify or use someone else's content the onus is on you to get their permission. You're aware that you're going to do it, so you can't claim you weren't sure if you had permission or not (not specifically you in this case, just hypothetically).

    So this sort of thing:

    is just completely wrong. Some games used to ship with all the graphics sitting open in normal graphics format files (bitmap, jpeg, etc) but that didn't mean they didn't own that content. Going and using that work, or a derivative of it, would probably land you in hot water. Crediting them doesn't make any difference.

    Well I'm certainly not a lawyer but it seems clear if you take it as read that you'd be fine converting it, providing you gave proper credit and released it under the same license (so you're happy for someone else to take your conversion and modify it, with credit). It sounds like you'd do that anyway so I don't see why it would be an issue.

    Regarding encryption/decryption, no system is ever completely secure. A big developer could spend quite a portion of their time (and money) trying to keep up with those trying to break their systems, and presumably that is the case already. A small developer is probably relying more on being less of a target because they'd spend more time constantly changing their methods to thwart hackers than actually developing their product. That's just the nature of software - it has to be interpreted at some point, and that means it's never 100% secure.

    That doesn't seem relevant here though - you're asking ISI to help you with an import tool that would be used by very few for your stated purpose, and used by many more for the purpose this thread is predictably heading towards. So ISI understandably won't do it.
     
  18. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    Sorry but I must disagree. You are talking legally and theoretically and I am talking practically.
    Reading your arguments I must assume that you would be fine if your house and car had no keys and if your bank did not have any kind of security system.
    Law explicitly says that you cannot steal things from others so all that crap is unnecesary and not exigible to the car house manufacturers or the bank. Anyway, it is known they could be broken by thieves.

    The position that you are defending makes no sense and I bet if URD thought that ISI security system could be easily broken, they would stop working in their mods. Maybe Ales could give his opinion about this. IMO leaving things protected would imply that you don't want others to take content. Evidently, leaving them open just the opposite. Things would be much simpler for everybody to understand.

    The last paragraph is funny for me. IMO the reason why ISI does not provide a proper import tool does not have anything to do with piracy.
    It is quite clear that ISI has not provided much content either in the original modding language, 3dsmax, to support modders. Documentation and examples are insufficient and makes modders learning curve much slower than what could be easily possible.
    Track modders are supposed to be IT people that love to be meshing with files, converting cars to devmode to do proper AIW files (The skippy is the worst choice for this), ...
    Sorry but ISI does not care much about its modding community and it is a fact that other people have done much for the modding community than what ISI has.

    Thanks for the explanation about the link. I was pretty sure that it meant that but I am not a lawyer and I am not used to reading these type of tetxs.
    I will be happy to credit the author of the track from which the link comes from and leave it for any other one that wants to further work on it.

    PS. One more thing I forgot to add. One of the main reasons why it is important to be able to open this party stuff is to LEARN. If it wasnt for dave noonan and 3dsimed I would have never been able to publish any track for rF2. I try to imitate ISI in the way to do things Especially the ones which are new in rFactor2. The only way to that is to be able to IMPORT RF2 content. Some may think the way I do and others don't. But please ask the amateur modding community before asserting that everything is fine when modding for rF2.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2013
  19. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    12,346
    Likes Received:
    6,572
    That's a strange extrapolation to make from what I said. Certainly I can't see any need for you to assume such a thing. Games and mods are constantly being ripped off, encrypted or not, but of course if you want to reduce the chance of it happening it makes sense to encrypt it.

    I didn't think that's what we were discussing - this thread is moving into "is it ok to use someone else's work if they don't say whether it is" and the answer is no. It's not a matter of personal opinion, but it's up to you (or anyone) whether you decide to or not.

    I don't know what you want me to say. Any software security system has the potential to be broken. That's not an ISI thing, that's just how it is. If you've got a solution there are thousands of software companies, movie studios, publishers, etc etc who would love to know. You could make a fortune.

    Really? That's the only way? The basic examples and PDFs they provide (discussing the new features) don't help at all? 3dsimed may have made it easier for you, but I don't think it was necessary for it to be possible.
     
  20. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    Yes stupid people like me need examples to learn. I am not such a privileged mind as you or isi people that see it perfect the way it is. With the pdfs you mention no one could learn anything without some examples except superior people like you. It is curious however that my narrow mind allowed me to finish number one of my promotion from elementary school to mechanical engineer degree. People like you remind me to some teachers that thought that the harder a subject to pass the better. They didnt even care if theur students learnt or not, they just wanted to make it difficult.

    enviado mediante tapatalk
     

Share This Page