Updated modding tools. Is it within the "To Do List"?

Discussion in 'Modding' started by SPASKIS, Dec 15, 2013.

  1. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    I have recently started using 3dsmax for upgrading my tracks ans some other related things.
    If I have not been taught incorrectly, to load an existing rF2 track into 3dsmax 2012, it is necessary to:

    1. Downgrade it to rF1 format (losing rF2 new shaders If I am not wrong)
    2. Import it with 3dsmax 2010
    3. Save it to max 2010 format.
    4. Open it with 3dsmax
    5. Save it to max 2012 format.

    I do not understand the reason for this. I think that right now the biggest challenge for most amateur track modders is how to improve our existing rF2 content.
    Lots of people like me, using other tools don't have the original scene in 3dsmax and our starting point would be our last rF2 version.
    The impossibility to import it directly to 3dsmax is not very understandable since other non ISI problams programmed the script to read rF2 gmt format more than one year ago (3dsimed).

    Is it within the plans to make an rF2 import script for 3dsmax2012? Any other improvement for track modding itself?
     
  2. freew67

    freew67 Registered

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    ISI didn't make one for rF1 so I don't see them making one for rF2. Im only using Max 2010 to eliminate the need to go back and forth. Thankfully Ive saved most of my Max files thru the years and converting over to rF2 requires little effort (at first at least).

    What improvements do you suggest for tracks?
     
  3. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Why would they just update export plugins? It is a pain to have 2010 and 2012 versions installed just for importing. As you say, you have preferred to disregard the benefits of a newer version just to avoid it. I have been told that 2012 is quicker. Besides it is ridiculous the amount of time it takes to import a whole scene. 3dsimed takes less than 1 minute to load any track and export it to any other format. Maybe its about time for a review....

    Within the improvements I would suggest that aiw editor was moved from devmode to Viewer.exe tool, which needs several improvements but has benefits as loading time over devmode. In viewer you should be able to select standard orthogonal views which are more useful for defining spots side limits, cheat limits, ... everything except for defining driving where it could be useful for final tweaking of small errors. I posted about it in the specific thread but no reply about it, as usual...

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  4. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    ISI have never released an import script and won't in the future, that's been made clear. It makes no sense for them to support the ability for someone to rip apart a modder's work.

    So they have no obligation to make the process you describe any easier, or any quicker. It's not their problem - they didn't do it.

    Maybe in your specific situation it makes sense to be importing rF2 content that is actually your own work (but produced with other tools) but surely you can see that a lot of people using import tools would be people importing the work of others, either innocently looking for clues on how to improve their own models or to modify the content in some way either for their own use or to re-release as their own.

    It seems to me you have a choice between taking the time to work through the process you've described (with its associated reworking) for your content that you think is worth it, or wait for the tools you have used (and already have your 'source' residing in) to catch up with whatever new functionality you're aiming to use in 3dsMax.
     
  5. freew67

    freew67 Registered

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    Im sticking with 2010 since I still work on tracks for rF1 as well. I also only make short ovals, so Im not 100% sure what new features would make my life easier. I don't use Simed much since I make everything in Max (haven't tried the rF2 version of Simed). I basically use it as a viewer program like the ISI one.

    I don't see the point of moving the aiw editor into the viewer program. I would expect the loading time to increase since it would need to load more information. At that, my guess that would require a crap load of work to make that change. When I know I need to pop in/out of the track I just leave devmode running in win mode.
     
  6. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Ripping off? I guess you are joking. If Isi wanted nothing being ripped off they would just encrypt all gmts and textures within mas files. Indeed few people does that. There is software to read gmts and convert them to rf1 so it is stupid saying that making an rf2 importer would increase or favor rippings. This is a community and I am glad to share all my work and reuse several objects and textures from other tracks. It grows overall quality for rfactor community.
    There are lots of tracks from rf1 that deserve being in rf2 but their original authors usually dont even reply to the petition for converting it. I dont really think they bother if someone else does. I really wouldnt care if I wasn't going to do it myself.
    For what I have seen, most tracks are a conversion itself from another platform or from another existing rfactor track with exactly the same polys. I personally dont care about converting those and publishing them internally within our website for our own championships (never in isiforums).

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  7. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    No, I'm not joking.

    I know there are already tools to do it. The point is ISI didn't make them, and won't be. You may agree with that or not but it's how it is.

    What you've said regarding rF1 tracks is a good example - if you can't get a reply from the original author regarding permission to convert it you feel it's ok to do so. I can understand that when it's for your personal use, but technically that track model is their property. It starts to enter a grey area legally, and I'm guessing ISI want to stay out of it by not providing a tool allowing reuse to directly occur. Whether you think it's ok, or you would be ok with it if it were your track, is irrelevant.

    If you have an issue with the import scripts available for 3dsmax 2010 maybe go and talk to the authors of them, or find the source for one and improve it yourself. Even better, change it to work with rF2 GMTs and 3ds 2012 if that's what you want to be able to do.

    Just to be clear, this issue of whether ISI should provide an importer is only a small part of what you've posted above. If you accept that they choose not to, everything else regarding importing that you've discussed (the hassle of needing 2010 to do it, the speed of it, etc etc) is a matter for a third party to address, not ISI.
     
  8. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Different pov

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  9. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    Another pov.
    ¿Do you imagine that MS Word or Excell could save a document, but could never open it anymore?
    This is what the ISI software does.
    We can export the 3DS Max projects to rF2, but not import them.
    For me is, at least, strange.
     
  10. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Or a multi-layered photoshop (or similar) image that anyone can view the final version of but can't be edited fully because the layer information (and full resolution images etc) are lost when producing the image?

    Anyway, we're moving into importing a 3ds export, which is very rarely needed by the original author. The OP has at least raised a more legitimate situation where you might want to import into 3ds (you were previously using a different tool to produce the scene).

    How about you take your excel document but are now using a different spreadsheet package - would you expect MS to provide the ability to export to that package or give you a converter to do it? That would be strange. (I know there are open formats you can save to these days - but if you only have your .xls file you might be stuck)

    If you're building the scene in 3ds, you have your 3ds file to open it again. Exporting it to GMTs etc is a separate process, provided by ISI, and it's up to ISI how convoluted the output is and whether they provide an import. The original author has no need for import unless they lose their working files, and in this case (unlike, say, a plugin) it's feasible to use the process outlined by the OP to recover it, though it's certainly not a simple process.

    The more 'open' you make a file format, the more you potentially limit third-party willingness to spend time producing files - because they know there's a very good chance their work will be modified, used, hijacked. Again I'd suggest ISI doesn't want to be the one helping that happen.

    Anyway, if you have a scene developed in some other 3d software, I would have thought if you have a lot of 'converting' to 3ds to do, you'd be better off using scripts (or a ready made exporter) to get that source into 3ds. Exporting to a proprietary format and then importing back into other software is probably not the best way to go about it.
     
  11. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    Photoshop can open the saved images. If we saved it in a non layered format we'll open a non layered file, but we can open the image.
    The software provided by ISI, that is used to export GMTs, can't import them. I'm not speaking about a exporting the files to a different format.
    We use an ISI software to save documents in an ISI format. But we can't open that ISI files with the software provided by ISI.
    If an author wants to protect his work, he can encript the mas files. If the ISI idea were to prevent the use of the mas files, that whould be encripted by default.
    Furthermore, there are tools to export the rF2 GMTs to rF GMTs or 3ds format. They are not prventing anything, it only takes more time.
    The work of the authors has to be protected, but only if they want (encryping the mas files).
    Who hasn't ever used an object made by another author? We have to respect the work of everyone, and use the credits for it. But if an author wants to share his work i think, it should be easer.
     
  12. K Szczech

    K Szczech Registered

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    Not exactly.
    You can open .MAX files just fine.

    So, projecting this to your MS Word example - you can load and save .doc / .docx files just fine, but when you export it to .pdf for viewing, you can't import it back without loss of features.



    Keep in mind that we're not talking about some text editor or image editor here. This is 3D scene and it's a bit of a different story - you don't just save a file, but process it, to produce a final scene for game engine. Many games don't support re-opening scenes that got exported to game engine and it has been so for quite a long time. For example, exporting levels to Quake was an one-way process, too.

    It's just the way these things work. Making them work in the opposite way would require extra work and very likely giving up many optimizations.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2013
  13. Noel Hibbard

    Noel Hibbard Registered

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    What is the point in exporting a Max file and then importing it back to Max if you have the original source. For the most part you would only do this if you didn't have the original source and if you don't have it, it most likely wasn't your work to begin with. Not only that but you loose stuff with import scripts that you would only have in the original.
     
  14. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    I think that some dont understand that what we need is a tool that speaks in rf2 language. Reading several posts It looks like if all the modders were rippers. You can import objects in rf2 format that people like me and most modders are willing to share and therefore do not encrypt the corresponding mas file. Some peple must think that all the objects and textures of a track are author made like if building a track with prebuilt objects was too easy.
    Thats the main reason why importing directly gmts is useful. Having to export it to 3ds or doing the 2010 conversion is not the optimal way to do it. 3dsimed is just an editor but can perfectly work in gmt format without saving anything in its internal 3se format. But I think that it jas been proven that everytime I claim that modding tools are insufficient there is some people defending just the opposite.

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  15. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Your whole first post is about how difficult it is to import game content back into a dev tool. You're assuming it's something ISI would be happy to help you do. If you want to continue to assume that, then sure, keep on asking for tools to do it.

    If people are absolutely willing to share, why can't they share 3ds files? I'm sure some already do, or would if requested.
     
  16. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Do you build tracks lazza or are you talking by talking? Making people do unnecessary things for sharing is the most stupid i have heard lately. Please do not reply again if you are going to add a new pearl as this last one. I really do not appreciate your poor feedback so save your time with me thanks.

    You probably think that i am asking for things that i really dont need and that i just waste my time typing for fun. Smart guy.

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  17. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Unnecessary things? Like sharing actual files you're working from? Yep, I must be missing something.
     
  18. Radar

    Radar Registered

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    To be honest Spaskis I would rather not be importing GMT files to use. I have Mario Morais tool for importing GMT files from my own work, or someones I have permission from as a guide and only as a guide.. I've created whole new models in Max rather than using these imported GMT's simply because I can clean up the mess from my own work from years ago or to simply add more details..

    What was a simple flat wall on a building I can now add windows into with a simple couple clicks on the wall panel and then suddenly I have a 3d window (for objects closer to the track).

    On the flip coin, I was going to use my chopper from the Canberra track, it was a low poly chopper, or so I thought, also with so many textures for one small object I decided to make a new lower poly chopper and use only a couple textures. The end result is a much better chopper, lower poly's, a couple textures and when exported looks a crap load better with the right rF2 shaders.. The GMT size went from 782kb to 311kb. Textures are larger in size (due to image sizes that I can reduce later) but also because the chopper uses Spec and Bump mapping (more textures), reflections etc. End results as I said is a much much better looking chopper and reduced poly's (because of the smoothing groups used)..

    I was starting to do what you were doing Spaskis but the end result was a crappy rF1 converted into rF2 looking objects. Once I was more and more familiar with everything in 3Ds Max I just started to create my own models and recreate my older models. You won't regret it and you will only end up finding yourself recreating those models at a later date anyway due to the knowledge you will gain over time.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2013
  19. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    I use an ISI plugin to save content with an ISI format that i can't open later.
    -------------------------------------------------------

    It seems that many people doesn't want that the beginners learn to make thinks well.
    From this point of view i've to learn 3dsMax and begin a circuit from zero.
    I shouldn't see content of authors who want to share it.
    And it's preferible not to use a rF1 circuit because the result doesn't have the "rF2 standards"

    Could you recomend me the way to achieve a good modder level without seeing material of other authors?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  20. boblug

    boblug Registered

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    ISI have included track examples of Joesville as a guide and their instructions are quite useful. I do agree though that it would be nice to get an importer, the RF1 one was good to help bring in ISI tracks to learn things and generally this should be all that's needed. I believe you can lock files - I don't know how though - so if you want to protect your work that's fair enough. There are many people on here who openly share ideas and knowledge so Im sure there is someone able to help you Spaskis without you being rude to others who are openly sharing their opinions. I don't see your attitude as helping.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2013

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