Upcoming improvement in the tire model (or physics engine if you have any information) ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DrivingFast, Oct 2, 2020.

  1. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

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    What do we know about the upcoming improvement in the tire model (or physics engine if you have any information) ?

    In memory, the last tire model dates from the first endurance pack (May-June 2018), more than 2 years............

    Very serious question :

    Why S397 invests so little in the improvement of the physics engine ?

    In general, when we have strengths, we try to consolidate them rather than being gradually caught up by the competition.... [[[ACC%! % #]]].

    And what do you think S397 will do with Michelin after the virtual 24H of Le Mans ?

    A partnership to improve the tire model with real data, or nothing, which would be very disappointing......

    I have the impression of being one of the rare fans of rF2 for 4 years to say that I would like S397 to prioritize these actions to improve realism.

    Tell me what you think.
     
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  2. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

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    You know for me physics and realism is most important. But ...

    I think rF2 still has the best physics in simracing market (and regarding that for me still is the market leader). And I understand S397s strategy to improve those areas where rF2 always was behind competition: graphics (incl. VR), licensed content (incl. full grids and laser scanned tracks), UI (more easy to operate for users) and last but not least building up online competition.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
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  3. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    AFAIK they are working on improvements with the formula E. So with that car we might be able to see what direction the tire model might go. The complaint with the FE is for example the insane drifting you can do with it. If this gets fixed it might make the M2 less drifty as well.

    But in general, the most requested feature is from what I've seen the track temp affecting tires, and of course tire compounds working correctly. Those are the most important thing for competition stuff and affect the racing the most.
     
  4. Kahel

    Kahel Registered

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    If we try to look what the focus has been for the past 4years...

    We can see... they invested most of their ressources in the graphic/render/UI pipeline... the goal seem simple, trying to make the game relevant for the years to come... but again, in the programmer and tech/ artist side... not in other aspect.
    They did nothing major in the... tire, physic, deformation, damage and sound aspect... but did deliver minor tweak and improvement on physic and sound...
    which is probably their goal since the start... take the rf2 base and make it attractif.

    About the physics, you can ask yourself if they ever had a team of physics guru left... and if they do, the team must be pretty rusty. and have been focused on content production only for years now.
    On the other hand they have developped a very talented artist team: texture, materials, lightening, modelling... are improving years after years. The last content look pretty good... and would look glorious in a modern engine like Unreal 4.

    So having some historic of what skills the teams have developped over the years...
    The lead project can easily ask for content production... but it would get a lot harder, time consumming and too late the in cycle of the sim... to rework entire core aspect of the game now... sadly...
    Hope I'm wrong tough... would love to see the title grow for years to come, a bit like iracing.
    Maybe it will happen if the competition system is a success.
     
  5. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    It's a simple problem of math and logic: it is far easier and rewarding to promote the lacking part of the product. They improved the graphical compartment greatly, they ironed out long standing and game stopping bugs. Now, the ISI policy on the simulation aspect were clear, and still apply: every aspect implemented in the simulation must be simulated and not canned. This make advancement in the most advanced compartment of the software more and more complex and less rewarding in term of output/perception. for example, now things like tire pressure and thermal interaction with the tarmac are considered lacking by the most advanced users. I would not be surprised if improving the simulation of 1 or 2 %* in this field would require a great development effort to achieve a difference that only telemetry or specific testing could detect.
    Probably transmission and engines will receive some love long before tire pressures, this because this compartment has much more growth ahead, even if perception wise is still fairly down the ladder.

    *) in a percentage were 100% is a theoretical perfectly accurate simulation
     
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  6. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

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    I understand your arguments but I consider that after 4 years of having done very little in terms of the physics engine (not nothing), it is time that they reinvest time on it.

    To improve on the aspects where they were not good, yes, but the problem is that it was incredibly slow, and that it was at the expense of an essential element (for me the main) : physics engine and realism.

    It should be noted that S397 does an amazing job in creating this car content regarding physics engine operation, so that official S397 cars look realistic.

    Now the important point :

    OK they have worked for 4 years and will continue to do so to improve in the areas where they have never been historically good... but damn they take things in hand on the engine physics and other elements of realism.

    For me AC1 was very lacking in realism and ACC is always less realistic than rF2... the improvement of the physics engine between AC1 and ACC is really huge.
    If there's an AC2 in 1 or 2 years with improved physics engine and realistic car content, rFactor 2 is just dead.

    Frankly I understand your arguments, but I am surprised that you do not have the same remarks and concerns as me regarding the physics engine of rFactor 2.
     
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  7. amishracing

    amishracing Registered

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    I don't think the issue with rF2 is solely related to the physics engine but quite a few issues with rF2 certainly are.
    I've compiled a list of some of the most asked for fundamental improvements people want to see in rf2 in an attempt to draw attention to the current state of rf2 game features and how they can be improved and added upon in a comprehensive manner available to the community.
    https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/compendium-of-needed-improvements.67381/
     
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  8. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

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    @DrivingFast But yes, I understand your post. It could also be that when S397 puts all the energy for years into improving rF2 where it was behind competition, that it loses its unique selling proposition. Which for me is physics and realism.
     
  9. Binny

    Binny Registered

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    Sitting back with popcorn waiting for a reply from S397.
     
  10. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

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    You probably have a lot of popcorn and time ;/
     
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  11. Binny

    Binny Registered

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    maybe you can ask the same thing on discord and save me time and popcorn if that will be quicker and less weight i will put on. LOL
     
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  12. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

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    Debate apart, no one has information about the upcoming improvement in the tire model (michelin...) or physics engine ?

    I would be delighted that S397 gives us information on this, whether on this topic/forum or on a roadmap or a racedepartment big interview. Just not on Discord...
     
  13. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    I know they are working on the FE tire model. So that will be the first one we will see what direction they are going with it
     
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  14. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    The bright side of no physics development is that there is also no degradation (lets be honest it could be expected as well). Tires in particularly is sensitive subject. However proper manual transmission simulation is not that sensitive, it either is or it isn't.
     
  15. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

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    One can, I presume, imagine that they will hopefully make a tire model for the FEs that will be superior in quality to the current rF2 tires as a whole, that's true.

    But above all, I want this new tire model to be used for all 100% S397 cars (> 40 cars), and not in 20 years.

    Indeed the updates are much too slow on rFactor 2.
    Some official circuits don't have puddles, it is really not normal. This is just one example.
     
  16. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    It's normal that some circuits don't have puddles.
    Puddles don't affect physics. It's a good reason to not add them.
     
  17. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I love how you all want stuff at no further cost. Updating 40 cars with new tires, fast and free? Hell yes!
     
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  18. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I am not sure what is more difficult. To imagine them doing that. Or to imagine what the result is supposed to be. I mean, how do we understand tires. Superiority is not so hard to imagine - everything better. But can we point out at specific things that would be more realistic if they were better, and which things would be better if they were worse ? Oh I think.... we have a problem here. Is making something worse is what any developers do ? For example rF2 tires are ok with lowest possible pressures, and it is in most ways superior, fix me if I am wrong, you get no brainer best pressure setting for best pace, plus comfort of softer ride, wheel rim won't be hitting surface and won't shread tire, tire wouldn't dismount, no further loss of pressure due to lack of pressure in the first place, not much increase in rolling resistance (if any, please tell me, somebody knows better), no real issues with lateral stability, no issue with trapped watter underneath contact patch (because too low pressure) in wet maybe because there is no actual water in rF2.... all of those are good, superior things, although probably not the most realistic. I think sirmacers likes two things the most - stuff literally better, and new stuff, updates. Realism ? Not that much, even in rF2, unless it is about something getting literally better, then it is undesirable.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
  19. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    In most sims that are being constantly developed, physics including tires are updated on old cars too. Granted in R3E it’s much less effort to update tires. In iRacing it’s complicated, but you pay much more if you want to play.
    I think in AMS2 they had much more physics and tires updates too.
    In AC all Kunos cars had always latest tire model, but again I suspect it was not that big effort as in rF2.
     
  20. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I feel that if and when some groundbraking update will be avaiable in the physics compartment, it will be probably worth a new version of an existing car more than a mere update. This could be a good occasion to update older 3D models and textures to the newest technology. Because I don't understand anything, but I bet that changing tires behaviour would need a complete physics overhaul of the whole car.
     

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