Traction Levels Between Sims

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by vegaguy5555, Mar 21, 2017.

  1. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

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    Thanks for the link,really enjoy reading stuff like that,do you have more you can link pls
     
  2. QUF

    QUF Registered

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    You think tires stay cool under stress in AC? The video I posted demonstrated exactly the contrary. Stereo was talking about how the temperatures are measured in AC's tyre model compared to thermal videos on youtube, he didn't even mention rf2, yet you start imagining things for some reason. o_O

    "You simply don't have any technical knowledge about simulation of tyre temperatures, yet you constantly say that AC is wrong and rf2 is right or very close to reality. I don't have that knowledge either, but I'm not throwing stones in either direction."

    In what world is this an insult? People on the internet are too easily offended when they don't like the subject.
     
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  3. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Holy ressurection ...

    I am not trying to throw stones in any direction. What I simply don't like is people starting to act like idiots and say stuff like"You don't know shit!!!11111!" and turn it into something personal. And that's exactly what you did and I feel that even this answers doesn't add anything to a otherwise technical conversation, that I would like to have in a friendly and informative manner. If Stereo has anything to add, then guide him to this conversation. I am allways willed to learn new things. At the end I just try to give you an impression of what I see and how I judge it. So take it or leave it. FYI, I enjoy AC from time to time for what it offers too, but I am not blind to see where both sims have their strength or their weakness - as in rF2 the temp behaviour on grass, in the wet or with the old tire model in extreme conditions. It's not perfect either and both models are approximations.

    To give you a more concrete example that you can test on your own: go and try to have a full lock up in AC at the end of Hangar Straight or any other long straight. And I am talking full lockup, so from maximum speed to standing still full on the breakes. The highest I could get the surface temps in the BMW Z4 GT3 were comfortable 160-170 degree and the tires started smoking. In rF2 with the Camaro it got up to over 400 degree. I tried to compare both sitations in MoteC but the AC plugin didn't really show the surface temps in the log, only the core temps. From that alone you can't really judge it. What you can judge though, is at what temp rubber, especialy tires start burning. The tire smoke that you see during lockups or wheelspins is basicly nothing else than the tire surface that starts burning. Believe it or not, but tires don't smoke at a temperature of 160 degree, nor do they at a temp of 200. Different compunds can show different behaviour but we are not talking along the lines of several 100 degree difference for a modern GT3 racing slick. At the end they should behave similar, wich clearly isn't the case. What that means is something that I would like to leave up to your own judgement because othewise I will be the bad guy again.

    What I wonder: what's the point of an app in the game that doesn't show you the stuff that is written in the app, as is surface temp? Enlighten me if you think that I don't have the technical knowledge. I want to know what's so special about the surface temperature meassurement methode that you are talking about. It's easy to say "you have no knowledge" when you don't bring an explaination either.
     
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  4. David Wright

    David Wright Registered

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    I wouldn't use wheel lock-up as a test because only the small portion of the tyre in contact with the road is heated - the rest of the tyre isn't. So if the sim is displaying the temperature of the front tyre - why should it display the temperature of the small section which is touching the road? Logically it should display the average temperature around the whole circumference, and most of the tyre is cool when you lock the wheel.
     
  5. QUF

    QUF Registered

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    But the temperatures in the video I posted increased also because of sliding or because of steering at high speed. There were more situations in that video than just the heavy locking. Besides it was hitmaker that said tire locking had almost no impact on tire temp in AC. Now that I show a video demonstrating the temperatures dynamics from various situations of pushing the tyres he comes with the argument that it didn't raise the right amount of numbers... -.- That's why I'm saying he's no expert in saying what's right or wrong technically with the tyre temperatures. If he indeed knows a lot more, he didn't show it in this thread. His only argument so far was that AC is wrong and rf2 is right because AC's tyre temps aren't exactly like in rf2. Come on.. :)
     
  6. QUF

    QUF Registered

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    The app does show you the same values as in the dev app. However the colors are a grip guide (blue, green, yellow, orange, red, and gradients of the same) in the official tyre app but the colors in dev app are thermal which doesn't help the players while driving.
    You honestly don't read or forget very quickly. I said the same thing posts ago and now you ask the same.

    The method for thermal measurement of the surface temperatures seen in youtube videos comes from the actual surface where you can place your hand. That area of the temperatures will oscillate a lot more, will go to the higher and lower extremes more quickly.
    What Stereo explained for AC's core and surface temperatures measurement is that in the sim the surface is actually inside the tread where you can't touch with your hand. So those temps combining with the core temps will be more stable and more reliable for figuring out grip levels, while the thermal readings seen in F1 youtube videos are too volatile and too superficial.
     
  7. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    If you want to uniformly heat tires to burning temps I would make zeros. Steering full lock and full throttle.
     
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  8. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    It's only an example to show the effect. You can do the same thing with wheel spins or any other situation that stresses the tire above it's healthy range like slides for example and heat the tires more evenly. As said, it will leave this up to your own judgement and reserve my own opinion. How the sims display their surface temps is another problem. That AC is showing surface temps that aren't on the surface is a thing on it's own and doesn't sound plausible to me. Would be interesting to see a more accurate contact patch temp chart as it is done in rF2. What's the point of showing surface temps, that aren't on the surface? Anyway, we are running in circles here. If you enoy the tire behaviour in AC more, so be it. :)

    Small edit: I actually made a test as SPASKIS and you adviced to get more even tire temps. I could actually get the tires in AC to something like 400 degree, but it increased very slowly and took very long to get the tires to that temp - it allmost felt like a linear increase. In rF2 it's at 350 very fast as soon as the tires smoke and climbs up to 600 and actually correlates to what I said earlier. So either it's a problem with the tire app in AC or the tire itself. In any case, it's def. something to work on for Kunos.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
  9. QUF

    QUF Registered

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    There isn't an exact and correct science for simulating tyre temperatures, if there was every sim would have it equal. So if even the devs aren't sure how correct their stuff is how can we mere players be so sure of what's correct or not? When devs study a real life tyre they don't have all these numbers we see in apps and such. They have to create equations to simulate that behavior, so in the end each sim is also based on the devs interpretation of real life cars (of the components that make a car) since no one programmed and created formulas for the simulation the same way.
    You saying that it climbs to 600 or whatever other number it reaches, was this tested to see if the tyres on the real life car reach the exact same temperatures in all the different situations? I doubt there's any documentation available for sim racing devs on how to exactly replicate tyre temperature values for all of the tyre compounds/types and how that correlates to traction and grip. At most there's an estimate of what should be the correct behavior, but don't be arrogant to the point in affirming what's exactly correct or not for what rf2 or AC does when the simulation in both games come from devs personal research and not from a universally accepted and 100% proven simulation, otherwise all devs would have used the same equations and based nothing on their interpretation.
     
  10. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    I completely disagree with black art defenders. There are two ways to do things right or wrong. If AC is showing a slow and linear tire temp increase, then it is just a bigger piece of crap than I thought. Watch the video and tell yourself how fas they heat up and they maintain there for so long. You cannot deny evidence.
     
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  11. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Let him believe what he wants to believe. People deny stuff, even if you push it infront of their nose. I tested this because, as David pointed out, the tire locking wasn't really a fair and valid comparison due to the different working meassurements. I am not sure if the tire heating is linear or not, but it works very slow compared to rF2 or to what you see in the thermal videos. I would like to make a MoTeC log for both sims investigating the exact process and temps more, but the telemtry plugin for AC that I use only tracks the tire core temp. Maybe someone with some knowledge can guide me to a better app. Maybe it is just a problem with how the ingame app is showing tire temps and how it updates them, but it looks a bit wierd. Who knows ...
     
  12. QUF

    QUF Registered

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    Go test in game and do a video showing us how crap the temperatures are in AC. So far you only write what others have said without gathering any evidence and then analyzing from that.

    AC takes measurements from different places compared to thermal videos. Those measurements are taken from inside the tread while thermal camera is directly the surface in contact with air.
    Those colors you see in the thermal camera look like melting steel temperature, please... Next you're going to tell me that tyre rubber gets hotter than brake discs.

    You say that I believe what I want to believe. Actually is more like you're believing and taking for granted whatever rf2 simulates without ever having seen direct evidence from real life that matches the sim. If you noticed I didn't say AC or rf2 are right or wrong, yet you constantly make those affirmations without any real life evidence where we can all see which sim does it right or wrong.
     
  13. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    I just made a hypothesis based on other assessment. If he is right then AC tire model would suck. Please ask him to post some evidence. I would love to test it myself but I cannot get AC to work for several months already. Everytime I have driven that sim I have quit after less than ten minutes driving. Only beaten by SEGA WRC rally title which I downloaded as a trial demo from back when I started racing with my PS3. I drove it for about 600 m before uninstalling it.
     
  14. Ville-Samuli Mutanen

    Ville-Samuli Mutanen Registered

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    You guys are throwing videos where you don't even know what temperatures those different colors mean.

     
  15. unknwn

    unknwn Registered

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    How to monitor core tire temeprature in rF2? Last time I tried Motec plugin I couldn't find the channel for core temp.
    I think comparing tire temperatures should start from core temp, as it affects tire stiffness and therefore major role in actual grip compared to tire surface.

    In above video inner surface temp reaches >160C almost instantly, while middle/outer surface takes a few seconds to reach >160C , thread that is not on touching surface (thread grooves) stays at ~110C, while tire sides (where thread meets sides - even the very corner of the tire) stays "cold" 30-50C. Heat transfer to the core I think is what we should compare.
    AC probably doesn't even model the surface layer that we see in FLIR cameras (not just "hidden" from telemetry), just the "deeper" surface rubber and core temps (my guess).
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  16. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    To bring a few more facts to the table:



    Especialy Kunos' interpretation of the tire collapsing at the end and the car sinking into the ground is pretty interesting. I wonder how much more evidence is needed?

    @unknown: there is no way to monitor the core temp in rF2 afaik. It's only possible to track the surface temps in MoTeC, wich is basicly the most important information that you need. Also keep in mind that we are talking racing slicks wich are much softer compared to road tires as shown in the video.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  17. Ville-Samuli Mutanen

    Ville-Samuli Mutanen Registered

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    Someone doesn't know what is the reason for tyres sinking onto the ground but I think he doesn't even want to know..
     
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  18. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    You are talking to me or to QUF? If you have a valid explaination why a car sinks into the ground let me know. ;)
     
  19. mike.m

    mike.m Registered

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    Flat tires, AC does not visually show some of the things, like tire flex, flat spots, flat tires, s.o. That does not mean it's not simulated...
     
  20. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    That's what I suspected. But thanks for clarification.
     
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