Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by vegaguy5555, Mar 21, 2017.
I will have to try the LUT again for sure.
I found AC at the end of early access and was instantly sold on how natural it feels and just downright believable. I was playing rF2 a little before that and have no trouble swapping between the two, both sims feel fantastic IMO.
It's really amazing how different people's opinions can be on different sims when they're all trying to do the same thing.
It really is just down to preference.
Yeah! I didn't mean this as a beat up AC thread. I feel the same way. Right now I'm having a hard time driving AC but I owe the guys and AC a lot. I can't turn my back on them. I will try the LUT again and continue to pick brains for the right and best tweaks. I am, however, very distracted with rF2 right now. Trying something different is a nice brake but I know I'm missing something with AC, which is the reason for this thread.
I had lost all hope for Pcars but would go for a drive once in a while and then ran across Jack Spade's wheel presets and wow, its derivable now. Not comparable to AC or rF2 but pretty good for a sim/video game.
I was just racing the Cobra in rF2 and there are times when there is more traction and less. Right now rF2 has it in more realistic places for me. It was only recently that I got the Cobra working this good after going through the wheel sets with the clipping app. Thanks guys! By the way. Before that both Cobras drove very similar icy plow-steer.
Bottom line is, it's amazing how impotent the right FFB is! It makes or breaks a sim. Better graphics can't fix that.
After reading this thread l started up AC after about a year on the shelf, spent an hour trying to setup wheel and FFB . 6 laps , not convinced another 10 laps nup ,uninstall , FFB felt canned . No doubt l could use some extra work on settings but overall the feeling was, for want of a better description ,bland..
I started AC with G27 since it was launched. If my bio-rythm was good enough and I tried to feel like I get in the car, I felt AC is really immersive. About 1 year ago, I assembled OSW by myself and I hadn't played AC since then(recently I started playing AC with recent update) and started playing rF2.
The reasn for dropping AC was I felt too springy feeling at the wheel. I tried to find apprpriate damper setting(must have for OSW) but I couldn't find sweet spot. But in rF2, I can find sweet spot at FW damper setting 5% although I'm still feeling that self-aligning torque is too high(once I find good setting point feeling non-power steering car, I need to fight with steering wheel especially for oversteer recovery and easily I failed due to the too much torque. Hence I need to reduce power gain down to a certain point). Reading the forum contents, I got to know that there is no specific setting for this but I've generally been satisfying with rF2(in my favorite cars).
Coming back to AC, I was able to find sweet spot settings(but still not applicable to all cars) in recent release mentioned by others. With some FW damper setting and ingame gyro & damper setting(seems dynamic), the springy feeling was significantly reduced(still exist in some cars). One noticable enhancement is that I can easily delay oversteer correction time (like drift?) giving more gas. It was doable but now much controllable.
What I'm thinking now is the FFB feeling can be extremly different depending on the settings and HWs. Regarding the grip level difference, I'm not an expert who can describe the difference. I just pick the cars in my favorite regardless of game.
BTW what is plow steering? I'm not a native English speaker and have no idea what it exactly means. Can someone explain it?
It is difficult to understand the need to fiddle around FFB when using a common wheel which is recognised by the software.
As said many times, FFB is a part of the physics and should feel real out of the box. There should be no need to postprocess any FFB signal with damping, filtering or any other thing that distorts original FFB as delivered by the physics engine. The only allowable should be intensity scaling to adapt to the max torque capabilities of each wheel, which BTW is a specification figure. The linearity also can be slightly adjusted in order no to reduce too much lower end forces when a low scaling factor is used.
Apart from this, do not expect a wheel to reproduce with 100% fidelity any type of dynamic input. Apart from max torque capability you will also have different dynamic capabilities among wheels.
Do not expect an old G27 with backslash caused by play between the gear teeth, to reproduce exactly sudden torque changes or a constant torque when you are slightly moving the wheel around the cornering wheel angle due to corrections (rotational speed changing sign).
My meaning for plow steer is when you streer but the car continues to go straight, pushing through the front tires. The steering tires are not steering.
A plow is also a big curved tool pulled behind a tractor that turns over earth for farmers in a field in North America is referred to as a plow here.
Sorry for the confusion. I forget I'm talking to to the whole world.
That's a good point!
That is exactly what the Cobra was doing here and is still doing in Assetto Corsa, for me. Missing physics detail (icy feel means, no information. There is no reason for the slide. There was not a FFB cause, therefor it is hard to react to the effect). That is what the heart of the problem always is and always will be for sim driving.
Blocked/missing physics details!!
Thanks for your thoughts words of wisdom!
Steering FFB is such a subjective matter that removing it completely from a physics-perspective is probably the only way for people to arrive at similar conclusions regarding grip / handling / physics.
Through hind-sight, my opinion of handling among various titles has changed a lot relative to the FFB-system in use so it obviously has a great deal of influence on my perception of the underlying physics. In theory, FFB may seem quite simple, some even believe it's nothing more than some vibrations felt through the wheel; of course, it goes way beyond that and can be amplified many time over with DD-wheel use. Some titles where I once despised the handing / FFB, I now adore.
I currently use both AccuForce and OSW steering systems, alternating use every month or so to become as well acclimated to their characteristics as possible. I tend to do the same with Racing-sims including AC, rF2, AMS, RR and iRacing to some extent. Having done this for the last year or so, I'm finding it quite easy to transition from one title to the next and honestly, I can enjoy and be immersed at a high level in any one of the them.
The things that influence our perception of the underlying physics are anything but simple; visual cues, audio cues, FFB, tactile effects, motion - can all play a huge part in handling-feel. When I started in Sim-racing, my first wheel was a ThrustMaster T1 (No FFB what-so-ever) and it improved my driving and enjoyment over using the keyboard or a flight-stick for car control. I had to rely on only visual and audio cues for judging the threshold of grip; today, that's almost unthinkable for me and if forced to return to that, I'd give up playing in a nano-second. . . .
When judging physics, the hardware we use can have very significant influence on how we detect grip. From using a FFB wheel to non-FFB wheel, all sims would likely feel like driving on glare-ice; use a Direct-drive running at high torque and it may feel as though the grip levels are now massive. The differences between simulations can actually become less of an issue with certain hardware and that point is clearly demonstrated through my personal sim-racing evolution; no FFB /early Logitech wheels /Fanatec CSW / now Direct-drive.
To me, the biggest differences with AC-FFB / handling are low-speed grip level issues and somewhat less-progressive self-aligning-torque in FFB; rF2 and AMS both provide a more-progressive feeling of SAT leading up to the threshold of grip-loss.
I get a better feeling of pressure / resistance in the wheel leading up to grip-loss in rF2 and AMS than I do in AC; AC and RR rely on a sudden drop-off of grip feel instead. The details can be increased / decreased to suit in any case so I won't delve into that area but, I put front-grip levels and over-steer / under-steer as the most significant factors in FFB and adapting to the differences between Sims makes it a bit more challenging when transitioning back to AC - especially with road cars. Still imo, AC has received some good improvements in recent updates that have somewhat closed the gap that previously existed; it just needs to include more Racing features and AI improvements.
Missing FFB detail with AC is my problem for sure. But the other is brakes feels wore out for me. On off switch.
The traction is backwards in AC as well. Coming into a corner the back axe has more traction then the warm tries on the front axe. When I try fueling the back end around the way I can in a real car or rF2 the car will push through turned front wheels. Skids feel too long and hard to predict. Delay of some sort. I have been fighting this for years in AC.
So in some ways I agree AC has more traction.
I also find it steers too quickly at times as if the car is weightless thus my argument for missing weight transfer.
I will try turning off FFB but the problem with AC is some FFB is off now. I'd like to turn it on.
Coming from rF2 now AC feels really dead and flat. It's hard to go for more than a half dozen corners and I can't wait to get back to rF2's old graphics.
Right now for me Pcars and AC have what each other is missing. Pcars physics are based solely on weight transfer. Some much so the cars back end flies in the air over sharpe drops or hills. Dead wheel down the straights.
AC, for me, has flat 2 dimensional slide and pop over hill or over curbs missing physics. Lots of steering detail otherwise but it shuts off when braking into a corner where Pcars comes to life.
When comparing real video footage with sim footage rF2 wheels look closest to real wheel shaking, both hands for control, can't take your eyes off the road driving to me.
When I see video shots of AC it looks more like fake movie scene, one hand driving.
On the sim realism, AC is between PCars and rF2, i don't think it's fair to compare it to rFactor... It's like comparing a tuned trackday car to a racecar.
Pcars is a game I just can't get into; it lacks a visceral quality and subtleties in FFB that other titles provide and the handling is just bonkers at times - there are too many cases where the car has massive grip and then nothing, no chance of saving it. I've heard some good things about Pcars2 though so, I'll be giving it a fair chance when it hits the streets.
take the test with "wheel check" with a grain of salt ....
Here are a couple of video's showing the difference I have between AC and rF2.
FYI. When field of view and set position is not correct it is hard to feel grip in rFactor2 and cars like Cobra are undriveable.
There is good video made by Paul Loatman, Cobra at Sao Paulo which I could not found from forums. Perhaps Paul could upload that video to this thread?
FYI. As far as I know the Cobra in AC is not the same car as in rF2.
The rF-version has much more hp. (correct me someone if I´m wrong)
Besides that, I can´t see what you feel in your videos, so does nothing...
so what you mean is understeer or push.
That video is brilliant at showing how to drive a basically unrefined 427 cube beast
Default FFB in AC is completely off, you need to build a LUT for your wheel especially if your wheel is a high quality one (Bodnar, OSW...)
I'm not able to drive without FFB.
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