Tire Temperatures in rF2

Discussion in 'ISI cars and tracks' started by Nor, Sep 11, 2013.

  1. Miro

    Miro Registered

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    Once you get them to work there opens a whole new world to you in regards to driving.

    I can't even explain what an eye opener this was for me honestly.
    I am still not there where I want to be but I understand much better why I am slower than some aliens and what I am doing wrong.

    I also think in rF2 better drivers will have a bigger advantage (faster and longer stints) although it's easier to see what you are doing wrong in rF2, at least for me now.

    I could talk about this every single hour and how much rewarding it is to get it right and to drive on the edge in rF2.
     
  2. datanode

    datanode Registered

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    Hmm I thought primarily it was airflow over the tire that cooled it, pit lane speeds won't necessarily cool it that much.

    If you drive at 40kph on the track and it cools just as much then maybe that is an issue contrary to this?

    Don't know, not got too caught up in this yet :)

    Btw Matt has managed to manage the tires, a skill in itself?

    After having raced a few times with him (no where near his pace) he certainly has "a" point :)
     
  3. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Wonder just why I not get the vehicles accelerated across with some slip angle while cornering. No thrust from the rear. Under acceleration, the temperature rises suddenly up to critical level and acceleration take off does not help. It speeds up by itself and oversteers.
     
  4. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    rF2 doesn't provide 'whole tyre' temperature, either on-screen or via the plugin interface. What you see (just like in the Panis video above) is basically the surface temperature. So what you're seeing is excessive surface heat (from friction during cornering) washing off and the surface temperature approaching that of the deeper rubber. The rF1 style temperature might change from 70 -> 60 in the same situation.

    It does seem likely that ~60 base temperature is much too low, for sure.
     
  5. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    A developer blog on the tire would be nice. I'd like to know what the temps on the HUD, garage screen and telemetry output represent. If they are surface or carcass temps. Will we get tire slices showing wear etc. ?
     
  6. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    TyreTool readme v3 states for this parameter in the [Realtime] section of the TGM:

    ThermalDepthAtSurface = The depth of the temperature sample layer used for contact properties
    (i.e. grip and wear); if provisional second layer is disabled, tread will never be allowed to get thinner
    than this value. Not recommended to push below the default value of 0.0001, as the accuracy of the
    thermal conduction may suffer. Higher values will reduce temperature fluctuations felt in tyre
    surface temperatures which are used for contact properties. Lower values would increase the
    conductance, increasing fluctuations but as stated may create accuracy problems if the rate of
    conductance is too quick for the physics sampling rate.


    I don't know about you, but it seems very likely to me the displayed temperature would probably be at this same depth. That would appear to be borne out by the fluctuations we see in tyre temp.
     
  7. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    Thanks for posting. It sounds like it's the average temp of the tread depth. Now that just leaves what garage temps represent.
     
  8. Pumbaa666

    Pumbaa666 Registered

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    So what is that exactly showing? Surface temp of one tyre or in/mid/out of one tyre... Because a car has 4 tyres if I remember correctly... If it's all 4 tyres that means 1 tyre is at -25 the whole time or there's a busted sensor... Which again means I cannot trust the tyre temp info...

    Surface temp is not what I was talking about, the carcass temp to me is more important than surface which is heavily effected by exterior conditions, and therefore doesn't give us an accurate readout of what the tyre is being heated to... Surface temp helps for blistering, but that's something I'd much rather read in a readout in the garage, or via Motec, than via the HUD..

    I can't agree with this more... The information for the modders is really not helpful at this point in time... It's needs to go much more in depth than it currently does... For tyres alone I'd appreciate 50+ pages in a pdf with proper explanations to the values in the .tgm not the half explanation we get atm...

    I think Lazza is very close to the ball with the tread depth value, I've toyed around with it to get more rubber on the tyre, but not to change the HUD as I took it for granted that it would be set up in a way that made sense to me lol...

    Bottom line is here, I'm not bashing ISI for being this adventurous with tyres, I love the way it forces me to drive differently than in rF1 and other sims... I just know there's a lot in the game that is incomplete, so while showing patience I'd also like them to make good on their tyres, as the potential is mouth watering, but it's been almost 2 years and it's still very much potential...
     
  9. 88mphTim

    88mphTim Staff Member

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    Actually, the tire model is, from what I can tell and have seen, the most advanced available as it is. That's not 'potential' already. It isn't 'wrong' there's simply more things we know we can add to it to make it more right. When we do, these things are actually going to make some of the complaints WORSE, not better, until you adapt to the tires like real drivers do, that is.

    I do agree that there needs to be more explanatory information both for modding and for driving, but there has been a lot of explaining already that has been openly ignored. Matt (above) has explained how he drives to get the most from the tires many times... You might recognize his name from the credits of GPL. He knows what he's doing and he understands what people need to do. Seeing him explain himself over and over again, being ignored, it doesn't persuade me that I need to tell anyone at ISI to do it, as they'd be ignored as well.
     
  10. Radar

    Radar Registered

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    Exactly right Tim. Those who have not raced in real life will never understand as other games don't do what rF2 does.

    Please people, read Matts explanation, watch some in-car drivers race lap after lap and see how little the hands move in and out of corners..

    Bathurst is coming up in Aus, if people can watch the race then do so as it will give a good idea on how drivers will drive over a long race (1000 kms).
    They often run out of fuel before running out of tires but in particular, watch how little they turn the wheel, how soon they ease off the accelerator, how soon they are back on and when they do it's not 100% throttle, it's easing on the throttle. And most of all, compare these pro racers with other pro racers in the same race as you will be surprised the difference one drivers tires are over another especially in temps.
     
  11. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Who is ignoring anyone ? Only one who ignore something is ISI the people , not the user is. I'm well aware of Matt's post as i'm liking to read his statements and i can agree with the most of as far as i can understand but there is this little thing i don't agree with is to say, you just need to adapt to it.

    Drift angles are simply not working with the most tires and it is even for slicks wrong how they react on acc with some slip angle, no matter if pre heated tire and rubbered track, it is a non natural behaviour imho.
     
  12. MarcG

    MarcG Member

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    The only thing missing from Matts post is an ISI Staff Banner under his Avatar, I'm sure people would sit up and notice if an ISI member says how to do things properly regarding Tires (or anything for that matter), that could then be added to the Wiki and future threads about the same subject (which will happen...lots) can point straight there. You're only presuming no one would listen to an ISI member, worth trying then finding out eh!?
     
  13. Matt Sentell

    Matt Sentell Member

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    My snarkiness is due to Guy repeatedly posting about uneven front/rear wear rates on the GT cars while ignoring multiple posts I've made on the subject where I provide evidence to the contrary from actual races I've done online. Normally I would just ignore back, but I know that in this case a lot of people in the community aren't sure what to think.

    To be clear, I'm not saying that any of these other issues being discussed don't have merit. Things like temperatures in response to camber changes, or the rate that they cool down, etc. Those are very technical matters and deserve to be examined. I've been skeptical myself of how quickly the tires cool at times. But those are engineering discussions.

    Saying that it's impossible to keep front and rear tire wear even, however, and that the fronts ALWAYS wear out much more quickly than the rears, is demonstrably untrue. It is dependent on driving style and track characteristics.

    I think some people are inclined to really appreciate the more realistic tire management in rF2 but some (many? most?) insist on trying to drive it the same way they have rF1 and every other racing sim from the past 20 years. During that whole time we've heard people with real racing experience comment on how much we could abuse the tires without much penalty, and now we have something that finally takes a big step in the direction of fixing that.

    It's funny because at first I wasn't very good at it either. I was so focused on trying to reach the fastest guys' qualifying times, and then in the races I'd keep driving the same way to try and keep up. I could do it for a couple of laps but then I'd fall off and start having lots of moments. At some point I started understanding how to go just as quickly without pushing so hard and overheating the tires.

    speed1, you said this farther up in the thread:

    Wonder just why I not get the vehicles accelerated across with some slip angle while cornering. No thrust from the rear. Under acceleration, the temperature rises suddenly up to critical level and acceleration take off does not help. It speeds up by itself and oversteers.

    I can tell English isn't your first language so that's fine, no apologies needed, but I'm having trouble getting your meaning. It seems like you're saying that you have a hard time accelerating while still cornering without the car suddenly spinning? If so, is this specifically in the GT cars?
     
  14. Matt Sentell

    Matt Sentell Member

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    BTW I'm working on getting a good video recording solution set up so I can post vids that may be helpful to people. Replays aren't particularly useful in this regard because they lack the tire noise. Steering feedback is a big part of it as well but that doesn't come across in a video, whereas the tire noise does.

    When ISI released the abrasion code some months ago I did some testing right away and was impressed, but after doing a ton of races with it now I'm just blown away. The variance in how different drivers use their tires is evident even in the 15-minute races that run on the IsR Megane server. When you're close on pace it can determine the outcome, although to some degree it can be ignored at that race length. When you go to 30 minutes it becomes a big factor in the outcome, and in anything beyond that it's huge.

    In that 40-minute Camaro race I linked to previously, you can see that there's a very accomplished rF1 driver in that event who finished 3 laps down even though his fastest lap was only two tenths off my qualifying time. One of those laps was from a penalty but the other two were due to over-using the tires. I was behind him in the opening laps and could see all those rF1 driving techniques at work like locking the inside wheel on the way into corners. He pitted twice for tires while I only used 40% of the LF I started with. I'm not pointing this out to brag. I've known him for a long time and he's a great racer. I'm sure if he devoted some more time to rF2 he'd figure out the tire management and do just as well. My point is how big of a difference it makes.

    As Radar says, even among professional drivers in a given race you'll see differences in tire management that can affect outcomes. These are men and women who absolutely know what they're doing, but they're pushing to the maximum and so small differences will matter. The ONLY way this can be true in a sim is if it's also possible to get it utterly, horribly wrong. Unfortunately most people who only have racing experience from sims are going to do exactly that, because in a sense they've been "taught" to do it wrong for years. More specifically, they've been:

    a) Rewarded for overdriving the corner entry phase, sometimes with wheels locked up, but always with the front sliding excessively to bleed speed, and

    b) Not punished over the long term for over-rotating the car past the apex.

    From what I can tell, it isn't just the wear and abrasion that has eliminated the advantage of these techniques in rF2, but also the thermal properties and how they affect grip. You can do these things for a lap or two, as it should be, but then it all goes pear shaped. What this means is you'll find people who can do really well in qualifying but then fall apart in the race, the way I did at first. And how awesome is that? I've said for a long time that with all these static sims where there isn't even any tire management, I sometimes wonder why we bother to race. I never feel that way in rF2, even when I'm quickest, because I always have to be mindful of how I'm using the tires.
     
  15. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Quick low-tech post: always find it interesting when people try a mod and say it's wrong because xyz (doesn't turn in, tyres wear too fast, whatever). You suggest they might need to change this or that aspect of their driving and the response is "but that's not how I drive."

    I wonder if they got a chance to drive a real race car of some sort and were told by an engineer that they were doing something wrong, would they turn around and say "but that's not how I drive." :rolleyes:


    * Other side of the coin: if rF2 wasn't a moddable game, nor a sequel to one, had some celebrity endorsements and claimed to be fully accurate - would people be more inclined to accept it?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2013
  16. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    Matt thx for your reply. It's not about you, i'm fine with you. I have a hard time to understand why the hell it isn't possible to push the car out of a corner with some slip angle or better say to drift for some degree as far as it is natural for the setup and tires.

    It is a mixed feeling which could be that it feels like the inner rear tire has no or very less contact while the outer wheel ensures the acceleration. Logicaly this results in massivly oversteer or spin. This is one of the observation where i think, this could be the reason of a non flex body. The sway bars can't work as in real, the inner tire get lifted.

    The second oddity is when in the same situation under throttle the transition starts from the static friction to the low/sliding friction the car can't be controlled with the throttle modulation anymore.

    From a certain angle and speed the vehicle accelerate itself further. That's not right. If the acceleration is taken back it should engage more closely the grip and ensure some thrust, of course in the range of the limits, but it is not about the limit but to this: automatic speed

    I'm not exactly sure which one was more clear showing this behaviour but i can say with every car i've tested, GT's as well. The skippy is one of the most worse car i've ever driven in a sim, even in real i've never experienced such a crap and i've driven thousends of different car's in more than 20 years working on and with cars ( rarely race cars, mainly street ).

    Shortly description : it isn't possible to use the rear somewhat more natural and brutal, even if it's just to burn the tires for some fun and corner action. Is also as they overheat to easy and I don't know whether the temp limit of the tire is reached or the result of the temp influence is showing a wrong behavior.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2013
  17. datanode

    datanode Registered

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    I have had the rear on a slight limit, it is a knife edge and to find that takes time. I have track experience, but have recently thrown myself into sim racing, I am not very quick yet, but I am getting better.

    Also if the rears do over speed the surface (presume) temperature will spike. The grip falls of and then you are in a spin? Is that what is happening, e.g. Short term abuse of your tires massively affects the grip they repay you

    Side note: Don't you need to change the tire volume noise to help as well?
     
  18. TJones

    TJones Registered

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    Sorry speed1 but this is simply not true. When you have a open diff like most of the "normal" cars out there, and you push to hard out of the corner the inner wheel start to spin, which means most of the torque goes to this spinning wheel. The reult is not massive oversteering but poor acceleration.
    On the other hand if you have a racecar with adjustable LSD (limited slip diff) and for example you have to high lock on the power-side, than you get "sometimes" massive oversteering because the outer wheel lost traction to early.

    I can slide or drift (more or less) with every car in rF2, also with the skippy. Most time it isn't easy. Maybe in slow corners or/and wet conditions it's harder than in real live. But still possible.
     
  19. Minibull

    Minibull Member

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    I find I have a hard time to understand why this always pops up? What follows is a bit of a spouty stream of thoughts...but ah well XD

    It's very possible to do, getting a slight step out from the rear exiting a corner, and keeping drive going. Whenever I drive the 60's cars, it is NEEDED to get them to drive well.
    Sliding a tiny bit while exiting is always gunna happen when you are nearing the limits. Then again, that slight slide is different to if you want to oversteer to help your corner exit, and use the "throttle to steer". If everything's getting a bit pear shaped, you can tighten a corner exit and just get the car pointing in a bit better direction, keep the power on and not end up running off the edge of the track.

    Now, is this the quickest way to go about things? Who knows, it depends on the track, car, and the situation you are in. How does this corner need to be driven with this car in these conditions to get the best exit? Have you got a good enough feeling with the car to easily control the slight slide and not get things too risky?
    Is it hotlapping or while in an hour stint in a race?...it all depends. To rely on doing things like that to correct bad input all the time is not going to be the quickest in the long term obviously. Come qualifying time, well yeah...you can get some great laptimes but hammer the tyres within 6 odd laps. Still depends on how you go about driving the car though.


    In the end, what I see is people blast out on track and go max attack. Struggle while skipping under and over the limits, run off, get frustrated, rinse and repeat. If you forget how you think the car should handle, and how much grip you think the car should have, and just focus on bringing yourself to the actual limit slowly, you will probably find yourself improving a lot. If people hold onto the fact that everything is all wrong and crap and don't bother to at least try to adapt their methods like any real driver would do, then they will always strike problems.

    If what you are doing isn't working, then you have to change it. Now whether that is changing your habits, or uninstalling rF2, that's up to you XD
    I was struggling with the FR3.5 around Estoril for a while in terms of just getting a good lap in. I always poo-pooed full tank runs while practising, but I actually decided to try it. Spent something like an hour and a half lapping, forcing myself to just slowly work my way up to the limit, keeping everything nice and clean and consistent. Last laps worth of fuel in the tank, and I just decided to try for a faster lap and got it easily. And in that time, I'd figured out good lines to take and ways to handle certain sections of the track. And now I like full tank runs in a practice session XD
     
  20. speed1

    speed1 Banned

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    @datanode
    Really don't know how to show off different what happens because it is so clear a wrong behaviour that people with experience and knowledge should feel it as well. I really wonder it isn't the case.

    datanode the sound isn't a issue.
     

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