Tire deformation exaggerated?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by avenger82, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. dylbie

    dylbie Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    647
    I made a quick video of the MR2 after I'd implemented it. In extreme cases I did see things which made me think it was a little exaggerated, but for the most part it looked pretty much spot on. Here's the video:

     
  2. Comante

    Comante Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,403
    Likes Received:
    910
    I can't understand how you can put "extreme circumstances" and "little exagerated" in the same sentence without blowing your mind.
    The answer to your doubts lie in the question itself. Beside this, who made the tires this mod is using, are they official? And even if it's not the case, remember that in this simulation you can't have catastrophic failure of components due to impact with the road surface, but this is not the case in the real world. In the real world you could have your tire could go out of the rim, the rim can impact the road, the tire can blew, the suspension can bend, the whole chassis can bend... especially hitting curbs at high speed in a street car. There are limit in the scope of every simulation, just like FFB can have issue at zero speed (wheel oscillation under some circumstances) then the same may apply to another situation like pushing tire carcass well beyond it's designed performance envelope. It's like doing stunts in a simulated airplane whose wings cannot be ripped off diving full throttle from 20.000 feets and then pulling unbearable amount of G's at 1000 fts : it's out the flight envelope and nobody would fly an airplane like that, so, even if there is a limit in the simulation ,it's still valid for the purpose it was made, but less and less valid as you go.. offtrack.
     
    LokiD likes this.
  3. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,282
    Likes Received:
    1,213
    Comante has made a massive point here. I think people (even me) forget that this is a simulation on a home spec PC, we cant get no where near real life values or scenarios. Its all reduced/dumbed down whatever you want to call it for the sake of a home pc sim. Im sure even NASA and their superior cpus cant simulate space travel in all its simulations!
     
  4. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,227
    Likes Received:
    1,584
    graphic deformation and physics are not totally linked, i.e AFAIK rF1 has tire deformation but no graphics of it
    But your video is very extreme, to a point a tire could blow maybe so "invalid" IMO as the game is not simulating that yet

    One more video :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  5. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    9,241
    Likes Received:
    4,318
    Yes. But nothing like the rF2 clip posted showing the tire getting stretched 20cm sideways on impact. And again, all your other linked videos don't show anything like that either. And I already said it was an extreme situation, and he agreed, so why are you posting all this?

    And now more videos showing tyre flex? Yes! We know that happens! rF2 does it well!


    Seriously guys, try to understand what a thread's about and read the whole thing before replying.


    *Sorry, that wasn't necessary. I need a break I think.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  6. Andregee

    Andregee Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    832
    Likes Received:
    322
    What we can see there seems to be an online record of an opponent and caused by the ping lag the game can´t calculate the correct position of the car. That is something that you can notice in all simulations and has nothing to do with tyre flex.
     
  7. dylbie

    dylbie Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2012
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    647
    :D It's like being in one of rFactor2's competitors forums! The funny thing is you later go on to describe exactly what I was getting at.

    Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough - If I accidentally launch my car off a big kerb or over a chicane (extreme circumstance) then the tyres flex a massive amount because of the inadequacies of the tyre/wheel damage simulation. Hence the tyres stretch much more (a little exaggerated) than in real life when they would probably be pulled off of the rim.

    So I'll make my statement again and add a bit: In extreme circumstances I do see things which make me think it is a little exaggerated but this is due to the limits of the simulation and the lack of damage modelling between tyre and rim. ;)
     
  8. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    261
    @Comante
    If you are referring to my "rfactor2 extreme tire deformation" video, then I'm sure it was official mod ( I believe Honda Civic BTCC 2013, that has latest CPM).
    EDIT: Oh I now see you where commenting on @dylbie's video.

    I agree rF2 is a driving sim, not crash test simulator:)

    Have you tried doing it in a proper flight sim? Well actually, I did a similar thing in DSC: A10C and guess what - wings broke.
    But in general, I agree if 99% of time physics are accurate, then it's a huge waste of resources to try to cover the remaining 1% of cases(especially if it applies only to visual aspects). On the other hand, when it comes to tire simulation model(not visual), then I think it's often about accurately simulating this few remaining percents of cases. I mean, most sims behave quite close to reality when racing under or even at the limit, but tire models often "break" when it's over the limit. That's why even in pCars 1 with it's complicated SETA tire model (or even in "hardcore" sims like iRacing, AC) used to be really hard to powerslide a car, or recover from a spin. As I'm aware they needed to fudge physic engine( or at least make major adjustments in tire model), to be closer to reality in such situations. I think even in rF2 it's sometimes unrealistically difficult (especially maintaining powerslides/drifting in mods which don't use CPM).
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  9. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    261
    @Amarildo Junior
    I also don't know why are you replying to me and linking videos, because, this is what @Lazza pretty much explained and I already agreed on that. Plus visual deformation accuracy isn't that important and most sims don't have it, let alone other (not only visual) features like flatspotting, and proper tire wear. Still, basing i.e. on AC sales and it's user base that's not what average simmer really cares about.

    The problem would be if not only visual effects would be exaggerated, but also physical aspects (like tire contact patch) would be significantly inaccurate for relevant situations. But as already explained in this thread - that's generally not the case in rF2.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  10. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    261
    No quite, it was offline and not opponent.
     
  11. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    261
    I think you explained it well the fist time, just @Comante misunderstood you :
     
  12. Amanda Santini

    Amanda Santini Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2017
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    162
    Because it takes time to open the thread, see your comment, and literally watch 200+ videos on tyres getting deformed? I spent around 2 and a half hours analyzing videos on this subject.

    What relevant situations? You were already showed how the contact patch and flex model is accurate on relevant situations, you know, like actually racing. Anything too extreme is not relevant.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  13. Amanda Santini

    Amanda Santini Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2017
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    162
    Because I couldn't find a video where this happens.

    There's no reason to complain about the deformation shown in that video. None. Zero. It's like complaining FSX doesn't have a proper plane destruction when going 400kts and pulling on the column: If I was the Aces team manager I'd say "hey, jackass, you're not supposed to fly a plane like that. How about you fly like a real pilot and then we can get you some accurate data on the surfaces behavior".

    See my previous post.


    What I got from this thread was:

    - Hey guys, isn't the flex model exaggerated?
    - (is shown proof it's not)
    - But what about this totally nonsense super-duper extreme situation?

    That's where I picked it up at, like you or not. All I did was reinforce the fact that the tire flexing is correct and showing that video makes absolutely no sense as the plane example above.

    Genuine curiosity: are you Canadian? :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  14. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    261
    @Amarildo Junior
    Yes that's what I meant by saying "relevant situations" - basically not "outside the parameters used when testing (calculating) tyres" as Lazza put it referring to my video.

    So for other people who didn't have time to read whole thread:
    Generally tire deformations are realistic in 99% of situations and only in extreme, rare cases (like hitting big kerb) can be significantly exaggerated(at least visually).

    As a side note I don't know if you noticed it, but @Lazza raised a question/doubt if calculations used for visual deformation (as seen in replays), are the same as used by physics engine (i.e.calculation of the actual contact patch may be more complicated than it's graphical representation):
    I actually assumed the tire physics and graphics are using the same calculations, but on the other hand that could explain why some people (@Lazza, @dylbie) still find visual effects a little exaggerated vs RL.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  15. PLAYLIFE

    PLAYLIFE Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2010
    Messages:
    743
    Likes Received:
    126
    Without having specifically tested it, this has been the impression I have had since day dot.
     
  16. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    9,241
    Likes Received:
    4,318
    No, but I am in a strange stage/phase of life at the moment. Does that qualify me? :D

    I realise it's difficult to throw away a long, or detailed, or well researched (with videos too!) post, but sometimes when you go away for a few hours the reply you were formulating doesn't make sense; the thread has already moved on. That's what happened here. But I overreacted a bit, eh? :cool:
     
  17. Amanda Santini

    Amanda Santini Registered

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2017
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    162
    Actually no, I was thinking your apologies made no sense since you were being too soft on me :p Like "what? He said only those things and is apologizing? What kind of special snowflakes does he think we are?" :D
     

Share This Page